Is this film strictly a TNG movie, or could it be considered a quasi-TOS movie also?
Thanks,
JL
Thanks,
JL
Is "Generations" Strictly a TNG Movie?
- Thread starter Joanna McCoy-Kirk
- Start date
Sure. Why not?
I think Berman always felt it was a TNG movie. The funny thing is that for me, they wrote Kirk's character better than they wrote for the TNG crew. I really think Shatner shines in this movie. You would think that since it was written by TNG writers, they would have done a crappy job on the TOS characters and not the TNG ones. However, it worked the other way.
I will say that it seems like they kind of phoned it in with respect to Chekov and Scotty's lines. I mean, it's pretty clear that they didn't modify their lines much after Nimoy and Kelly declined to be in the movie.
Instead of "It was fun" and "Oh, my" I would have liked Kirk to have said something like, "I always thought I'd die alone...I'm glad I was with you." I think it would have been a nice tie in to the TOS movies (albiet a crappy one).
I will say that it seems like they kind of phoned it in with respect to Chekov and Scotty's lines. I mean, it's pretty clear that they didn't modify their lines much after Nimoy and Kelly declined to be in the movie.
Instead of "It was fun" and "Oh, my" I would have liked Kirk to have said something like, "I always thought I'd die alone...I'm glad I was with you." I think it would have been a nice tie in to the TOS movies (albiet a crappy one).
I had always thought of it as a TOS/TNG transition movie, but you're probably right.
JL
It's a TNG movie with minor appearances by some of the TOS cast, and a major appearance by Kirk.
Great post, I agree with a lot of what you said!
I think you're right. Despite GEN's messy and clumsy plot structure, Kirk's character shines in this film, likely due to Ron Moore, an big original series fan, understanding the character and also due to Shatner's input.
I also agree that Berman looked at it as a TNG film. It might've been better if it incorporated more of the ST characters though, like Leonard Nimoy favored. I look at it as both a TNG film and an epilogue to TUC, specifically Kirk's epilogue. It's not just a TNG film, imo, since it deals with fate of a ST icon. That, along with the destruction of the Ent-D (very contrived), was the big event of GEN, the thing that elevated it from a TNG episode, despite the TV sets, costumes, director, and composer.
Yeah, the character swap at the beginning isn't perfect. The most grating line for me are the ones by Scotty, needling Kirk over being lonely. He never ever did that in ST, that was all McCoy. Also the line where Scotty theorizes they can break free from the Nexus by reconfiguring the deflector. That seemed more like something Spock would say. Chekov's lines came off better. I especially liked the little scene where he introduced Kirk to Sulu's daughter. I think Walter Koenig liked that one too.
I liked "It was fun" because that echoed Kirk's "Sounds like fun" line to Picard earlier in the movie. The "Oh my" was Shatner's idea and it just meant that Kirk was seeing what was beyond death, probably seeing something that was important to him. Shatner speculated it may have been Kirk's Enterprise. That was an interesting idea, but I think a lot of people didn't really get it.
I think your substitution's a great one. I really like that.
I think you're right. Despite GEN's messy and clumsy plot structure, Kirk's character shines in this film, likely due to Ron Moore, an big original series fan, understanding the character and also due to Shatner's input.
I also agree that Berman looked at it as a TNG film. It might've been better if it incorporated more of the ST characters though, like Leonard Nimoy favored. I look at it as both a TNG film and an epilogue to TUC, specifically Kirk's epilogue. It's not just a TNG film, imo, since it deals with fate of a ST icon. That, along with the destruction of the Ent-D (very contrived), was the big event of GEN, the thing that elevated it from a TNG episode, despite the TV sets, costumes, director, and composer.
Yeah, the character swap at the beginning isn't perfect. The most grating line for me are the ones by Scotty, needling Kirk over being lonely. He never ever did that in ST, that was all McCoy. Also the line where Scotty theorizes they can break free from the Nexus by reconfiguring the deflector. That seemed more like something Spock would say. Chekov's lines came off better. I especially liked the little scene where he introduced Kirk to Sulu's daughter. I think Walter Koenig liked that one too.
I liked "It was fun" because that echoed Kirk's "Sounds like fun" line to Picard earlier in the movie. The "Oh my" was Shatner's idea and it just meant that Kirk was seeing what was beyond death, probably seeing something that was important to him. Shatner speculated it may have been Kirk's Enterprise. That was an interesting idea, but I think a lot of people didn't really get it.
I think your substitution's a great one. I really like that.
That's a good point. Some people (I don't mean anyone at this BBS) are so inflexible that they can't see this and insist on equating Generations with any other TNG film.
JL
Me too, but I think it was more of a TNG film.
Also, Shatner's performance brings a lot to the role of Kirk when placed side-by-side with Stewart's Picard. The latter certainly looked burned out after going from a Picard-heavy finale to a Picard-heavy feature film. Stewart seemed overworked and exhausted in Generations. Shatner had more charisma in his scenes than Stewart.
Well, I wouldn't blame Stewart for being burned out after All Good Things and the ridiculous GEN schedule, starting 1 week after TNG wrapped up. That stupid schedule also hurt the film in other ways 1. It kept Moore and Braga from rewriting the script to make it better and 2. Because the script was bad, Leonard Nimoy turned down directing the film.
That said, I thought Stewart was fine in GEN. He got the job done and I really loved the scenes with him and Kirk. I really think Shatner and Stewart had a lot of chemistry together and it's a real shame the stupid script limited their time so much. Apparently, they had a lot of fun acting together and Stewart was sad that it ended. The two are buddies now.
But, yeah, I generally agree with you. I think Shatner's Kirk had a better arc and turned out better than Stewart. Of course, Shatner had more to work with, Kirk's loneliness in retirement, his lack of purpose, his regrets, and, finally, his death. He did upstage Picard, which is weird for the first TNG film. Stewart had some stuff too, namely Picard losing his family, and I thought he sold that really well as usual. I still think Stewart was the best regular actor ever in ST.
I thought it ended up as a TNG movie with a minor ephesis on Kirk and less of TOS.
Thanks for your comments. It's not that I dislike the "It was fun...oh my." statements. I don't think they were out of line. I agree with your statement about echoing the earlier statement in the movie.
I don't blame Nimoy for turning down a directing gig on Generations. Here's a man who was used to exerting a great deal of influence over his character (on the TV series) and over the films themselves (as an actor, director, producer, and writer). Now Rick Berman hands him a script and asks him to direct. When he points out where it needs improvement, Berman blows him off. That should be Red Flag #1 that if he'd blindly accepted the job he would have had far less directorial freedom than he was used to, and might have even spent most of the film at loggerheads with Berman.
Nimoy was the better man for having sat this one out.
As we've seen with Star Trek '09 and particularly The Voyage Home, Nimoy likes a hand in all aspects of the movie right from the start. He considers himself a film-maker instead of a jobbing Director. They were never seriously going to be able to throw the completed Generations script at him, and say make that work for us. If the story idea wasn't his, he'd need to be smoozed in endless meetings and have it altered enough, for it to feel like it was. A Paramount Exec practically had to beg Nimoy to do The Motion Picture afterall. Most of the time, that demanding attitude works and translates into real quality onscreen. Shatner's certainly no pushover but he generally doesn't see beyond how his own character fits into the story.
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If I'm not mistaken, Moore and Braga have said that it was Paramount, rather than Berman, who insisted that it be clear that this was a TNG film and not a TOS or combination film. It was the brass who placed limits on them on how long the TOS cast could appear in the beginning of the film, and that only Kirk could come back for the end.
With regards to the way the characters were written, I think it was the influence of Ron Moore that caused Kirk's character to be written so well. Though Moore was a TNG writer, he had long been a rabid TOS fan since well before TNG ever existed. I think he relished the opportunity to write for such an icon and childhood hero as Kirk, and he did a splendid job of it.
I agree that Scotty and Chekov were not well written, due to the fact that the parts were not written for those characters. It was the rushed Paramount-imposed schedule, I'm sure, that prevented Moore and Braga from doing the extensive rewrite of the opening scenes that would have been necessary in order to make the parts uniquely Scotty and Chekov. As it was, they had to just switch the names in the script and basically leave it at that.
I personally think it's a shame that Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley turned down the acting jobs in this film. I know they both argued that the roles were essentially glorified cameos that were not integral to the script and therefore didn't want to do it. But I think they missed how impactful their characters would have been to the opening of the film. Kirk's apparent death on the Enterprise-B would have packed far more of an emotional wallop if it were Spock and McCoy who were there to witness and react to it, rather than Scotty and Chekov.
Sure, Scotty and Chekov were old colleages who greately respected Kirk. But we'd never seen any evidence of a real friendship between them on a personal level. Spock and McCoy were beyond even friends to Kirk - they were his family. They had discussed death. They had even been through it together with Spock. Their appearance would have been more than a simple cameo, it would have been an emotional core to the TOS part of the film. And that's why I think it's sad they declined.
With regards to the way the characters were written, I think it was the influence of Ron Moore that caused Kirk's character to be written so well. Though Moore was a TNG writer, he had long been a rabid TOS fan since well before TNG ever existed. I think he relished the opportunity to write for such an icon and childhood hero as Kirk, and he did a splendid job of it.
I agree that Scotty and Chekov were not well written, due to the fact that the parts were not written for those characters. It was the rushed Paramount-imposed schedule, I'm sure, that prevented Moore and Braga from doing the extensive rewrite of the opening scenes that would have been necessary in order to make the parts uniquely Scotty and Chekov. As it was, they had to just switch the names in the script and basically leave it at that.
I personally think it's a shame that Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley turned down the acting jobs in this film. I know they both argued that the roles were essentially glorified cameos that were not integral to the script and therefore didn't want to do it. But I think they missed how impactful their characters would have been to the opening of the film. Kirk's apparent death on the Enterprise-B would have packed far more of an emotional wallop if it were Spock and McCoy who were there to witness and react to it, rather than Scotty and Chekov.
Sure, Scotty and Chekov were old colleages who greately respected Kirk. But we'd never seen any evidence of a real friendship between them on a personal level. Spock and McCoy were beyond even friends to Kirk - they were his family. They had discussed death. They had even been through it together with Spock. Their appearance would have been more than a simple cameo, it would have been an emotional core to the TOS part of the film. And that's why I think it's sad they declined.
A film about passing the torch should have included the whole crew and should have had an entirely different story.
It's hard to believe that this is the script that won out - for film that supposedly focuses on the meeting of the captains it was a total non-event.
Well, you could look at it another way. He DID die alone, on the Enterprise-B. The Nexus could have been looked at as "Heaven" or "the other side."
Still need to come up with an explanation about how he returned from the "dead" and was killed again.
They don't make stoppers big enough for holes that size
