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Is Fanfic worthwhile?

DavidFalkyn said:
Remember, Pyramus and Thisbe were both young lovers from feuding families who killed themselves rather than stay apart.

That's also the plot of the earlier Romeo and Juliet story. True, other segments are clearly inspired by Pyramus and Thisbe (and perhaps the earliest Italian source also used this, I don't know offhand). But it's got a much more important antecedent than, say, Othello, whose original story is shorter than the original, or Titus Andronicus, where it's arguable that Shakespeare's text is the earliest version.

tenmei said:
However, it amuses me, reading the recommendation thread and then coming in here, the support that you guys argue towards the validity of fanfiction. This support obviously only expands to prose fanfiction because, several times, I have seen people in this same forum decry any scripted fanfiction, condemning it for its format and saying that it's somehow less worthwhile.

Not only do I not decry scripted fanfiction, the bulk of my fanfic writing has been published under my usually assumed pseudonym of Hadrian McKeggan in script form. Most of these have been collaborative works, such as Star Trek: Renaissance.

Rangifer said:
Scripts are intended for performance: they're not written to be read--they're written to be recited. And once again, I see no contradiction between enjoying reading works which have been written to be read, and not enjoying reading works which have been written to be performed.

I am going to do something very dishonest in replying to this criticism.

I am going to extend my response to include plays. I hope I will have justified this by the end. In essence, it's debateable whether many plays were intended to be performed at all - the tragedies of Seneca immediately come to mind, which may or may not have been performed by aristocrats as part of a party entertainment. Even intended for performance, plays have enjoyed a long currency as something to be read and examined in the West, as traditionally Western theatre is very dependent on its writing - as opposed to the more visually-oriented theatre of the Japanese forms. This is another appropriate comment - for centuries, the Japanese did not consider the texts of their plays worthy of seperate literary evaluation, until Western critics began to treat them as such. Personally, I love reading plays. Many of my favourite plays are plays I've never seen performed, or have even been less-than-enthused with the performances.

And, on a further stretch, there are dialogues. I read dialogues all the time - that is, the dialogues of Plato. They are very entertaining reads, like having a vigorous intelectual discussion between many learned people.

What am I getting at here?

Well; in terms of narrative my greatest strength is as a dialogue writer. I love writing conversations, especially conversations with long speeches. I've done a lot of debating, and engaged in lengthy arguments - stylistically, this has always been the one thing I am any good at. I write these not to be performed, but to be read, and unencumbered by prose they can be very easy reads indeed.

But beyond me, scripts have just as much capacity to be interesting reads. They can provide detail where needed and provide an easy and accessible narrative structure - one I am far more comfortable in than prose. I write plays for my own private amusement, and I write fan scripts on the same principle. I mentioned Platonic dialogues, because in my more serious scripts these are a major influence (the long speeches frequently being a point of irritation from my critics).

And, speaking entirely subjectively, I think many of James Sampson's scripts for Renaissance are the best fanfic I've read. I'm not trying to be chauvanistic here and I'm well aware there's a conflict of interest; I claim no credit for them (and often hotly critiqued them in private). But they're still pretty much the par for the course.

Well, as I said, a dishonest defense, but that's how I feel.
 
Absolutely worthwhile!!!! I love writing Trek Fan Fic on my days off, especially writing stories that cover conjectural areas distinctly not covered since TOS/TAS (or merely hinted about,) on-screen in TNG, DS9 & VOY in the meantime. Hence my website link in my signature line. Long live Angelfire/Geocities-based fanzines (& Yahoo Groups)!!!!!
 
The posts in this thread are interesting, but your childish epithet exposes your immaturity. As for bitter, you embody the word.
 
Your reply is worthwhile and stimulating.

You read the Tales of Genji? That's great. I've read the translated version and fought my way through the original classical Japanese version.

Shakespeare based much of his work on previous literature and myth. The Amleth myth was his inspiration for Hamlet.

However, Shakespeare was paid for what he did, and grew tremendously as a playwright by exploring his limits, exceeding them, and eschewing Trek fan fiction.
 
Kegek, your ideas on dialogue are diverting. Dialogue is art in itself, and it is surely the weakest part of most fan fiction.

Aspiring writers should abstain from fanfic as deleterious to their emergence as professionals. It limits the imagination and detracts from experiences that would enhance one's writing.

Those that do it for fun are welcome to their pursuit.
 
DrGojira said:
Shakespeare based much of his work on previous literature and myth. The Amleth myth was his inspiration for Hamlet.
Yes, I've read Saxo Grammaticus' version in translation. It only loosely resembles Shakespeare's play, Shakespeare may also have been influenced by an earlier (but lost) play about Hamlet, which IIRC is of uncertain authorship - it may have even been by Shakespeare himself.

As far as taking from his contemporaries goes, The Merchant of Venice is very probably influenced by The Jew of Malta. I actually prefer Marlowe to Shakespeare, but that's another story.

Anyway, derivativeness is a major theme of, for example, Roman literature. Almost every variety of Roman literature - in plays, in philosophy, in epics, in history, in poetry - is based on a Greek antecedent. But many are considered classics. The same cannibalization is true of later, Hellenistic Greek writing - Apollonius of Rhodes' Argonautica is dense with allusions and reconstructions of scenes from Homeric classics. I recall Nietzsche despised this in its writing and called much of what more modern writing he despised 'Alexandrian', and I think I've lost my train of thought... but in any case, derivativeness is quite common.

And kudos to you for mastering classical Japanese. I'm a monoglot, and languages with non-Phoenician texts are bewildering to me.
Aspiring writers should abstain from fanfic as deleterious to their emergence as professionals. It limits the imagination and detracts from experiences that would enhance one's writing.

Perhaps. I'm not seeking to be a professional author so this never worried me.
 
Kegek, I might say that about Marlowe if his career hadn't been shortened by a sword through his eye!

I agree with you on many of the derivations you listed, but I see that as a good thing, drawing from works that are fundamental to understanding ourselves and our culture.

LOL. As far as mastering classical Japanese, I am only fair at it and much more proficient at modern Japanese. (You'd be surprised at how easy it is to start learning the language.)

Are you familiar with Coleridgean Shakespearean criticsm and its effect?
 
DrGojira said:
As far as mastering classical Japanese, I am only fair at it and much more proficient at modern Japanese. (You'd be surprised at how easy it is to start learning the language.)

Perhaps, but as a dyslexic I find languages quite difficult. I'm only this good at English by virtue of hard work and remedial spelling classes; and even then my poor grammar often shows through.

I agree with you on many of the derivations you listed, but I see that as a good thing, drawing from works that are fundamental to understanding ourselves and our culture.

But are these the prevalent myths of our culture anymore? I remember a very apt quotation from my CD of Nixon in China (I'll try to see if I can find it later) where the person (one of the librettists IIRC) makes the case that pop culture and media events - such as the one the opera is about - has replaced classical myth in our consciousness. The Greeks knew offhand as a culture their major myths, while only those with a classical ecudation today are as familiar. I'm not claiming that fanfiction is the natural successor of such mythic reconstruction, but it certainly has a similar idea.

As far as Genji goes, maybe it's just me but I found something particularly moving and pathetic in the case of the Safflower (Suetsumuhana).

Are you familiar with Coleridgean Shakespearean criticsm and its effect?

Can't say I am. The only Coleridge criticism I know offhand is that he condemned Bertram as immoral. This play was written by an eccentric Irish curate called Charles Robert Maturin, who went on to write a bizarre Gothic novel titled Melmoth the Wandrer.

Which is a longwinded, pointlessly ancedotal way of saying no. What was the effect?
 
Wow. that's a lot to take in, so I'll answer some of it and believe it or not, this will eventually reflect on my dislike fro fanfic.

First off, your posts are literate and stimulating, so you don't have to apologize for any putative shortcomings.

LOL Genji I would be glad to discuss another day at length.

The revelance of the myths is a great question and worthy of its own thread.

In the 18th century, the leading lions of the literary world started changing the end of Shakespeare's plays to fit the mores of the time. Really! Also, they derided the works because they didn't fit into the classical mold, including choruses et al.

Colerdige was the first to give criticism of Shakespeare's work in the modern sense and helped debunk the ridiculous drivel of decades.

The confining nature of fan fiction reminds me of this.

The history of Trek and the romance novel vs ones of action and myth also plays a large role in the general notion of Trek fanfic.
 
I know I'm coming into the middle of an argument and I'm just going to take one part of your previous post:

DrGojira said:

The confining nature of fan fiction reminds me of this.

I don't see that fan fiction is even remotely confining. There are some stories that I write that exist in the Star Trek universe and there are some stories that I write that don't. They are what they are.
 
DrGojira said:
In the 18th century, the leading lions of the literary world started changing the end of Shakespeare's plays to fit the mores of the time.

Ah yes, Bowlderization. IIRC that was intended to make the plays acceptable for children's reading, but there were other prurient moral concerns involved. And if memory serves, King Lear was performed with a tacked-on, happy ending for centuries.

As for choruses, I think it's worth remembering that Greek tragedies were sung, though the music has not survived. My point being that the choirs in operas are the modern descendant of the chorus, as is, in a way, the opera itself (obviously I'm strongly influenced here by Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy, which he later repudiated, but you get the idea). Even then, the tale of the chorus in Greek tragedy is of its diminishing importance. At first it was the drama, but as more seperate actors were added its role was curtailed to the point it is sometimes almost redundant in some Euripidean plays.

Which is a roundabout way of agreeing with Coleridge, though I still differ with him as to how I see Maturin. ;)

The history of Trek and the romance novel vs ones of action and myth also plays a large role in the general notion of Trek fanfic.

I guess that depends what kind of fanfiction one is talking about. There's certainly a burgeoning industry of romantic fanfiction which is influenced by such novels, and I'm not all that knowledgeable about that (Whoa Nellie might be able to elaborate here).

Obviously, though, the main influence of fanfic writers of Star Trek... is Star Trek. It's the one thing we all hold constant. Some of us may or may not take a cue from myths, pulp paperbacks or both, but we all draw inspiration from this prolific media franchise.
 
trampledamage said:
I know I'm coming into the middle of an argument and I'm just going to take one part of your previous post:

DrGojira said:

The confining nature of fan fiction reminds me of this.

I don't see that fan fiction is even remotely confining. There are some stories that I write that exist in the Star Trek universe and there are some stories that I write that don't. They are what they are.
Hi there, and of course, this is just my opinion. I meant confining in the fixed elements extant, not that it wouldn't allow one to write other works besides Trek.
 
Xeris said:
I have only two comments to make about this thread.

Admiral2 was right.

This thread is a waste of time since the OP hasn't come back to debate the issue so I think it should be closed.
I had work in Tokyo that took precedence over a discussion of fanfiction.
 
No, we usually ignore three posts. More than that will incur a spamming warning. Anyway, who made you forum mod? The notify button is sufficient, thank you.
 
Dear Dr.,
While you argue fine points of past literature quite well I would like to point something out. Grimm's fairy tales in the original are bloodthirsty stories. Over the years they have evolved in their modern re-telling into allegorical and metaphorical stories with a lot less violence. They teach and hold a grip upon our gestalt but they are not what they were. As society evolves, so too evolve our myths. While I agree that a society which fails to heed its past will have no future I do not think being mired in an unchanging view of the past is a good thing. Societies evolve or die. I had a copy of The Peoples Almanac as a child and one of my favorite sections was entitled :"People Who Never Were-Yet Live Today". It told of magnificent myths akin to Herakles, of a great investigator, eccentric and yet possessing an uncanny ability to ferret out the truth. It spoke of a man raised by apes who acted as a conservationist for an entire continent. Of a princess mired in the Greek myths themselves who left her island paradise to help protect the only true descendant of Greek democracy. And a man born, not of this Earth, who devoted his amazing powers to the defense of the values supported by a nation-state on his adopted planet. A man who was a beacon to others. I had read their stories and loved them but only when I read this article did I realize them for what they were-the genesis of a modern wave of mythology. When you and I are dust and our children too people will speak of heroes who wear capes and fly in the sky or prowl the night. They will tell their children of mythical beings wielding swords of light in the name of justice. They will talk of the men and women who roamed the stars, overcoming all obstacles. And who knows, when Western society is dust and forgotten these myths may still pervade the post-Anglican society that follows ours. I would be happy to think that somewhere, in the future, mothers and fathers regale their children with tales of the emotionless man who would not die, of the ship's captain who would not quit, of the robot that wanted to be a man. And if, in some small way, I participated in that future, then when I die I do so knowing my life counted. No coin found in this mortal life may be spent in Heaven, but the words said unto future generations are the echos of my spirit when I am gone.
 
DrGojira said:
Aspiring writers should abstain from fanfic as deleterious to their emergence as professionals. It limits the imagination and detracts from experiences that would enhance one's writing.

Proof?

Those that do it for fun are welcome to their pursuit.

That's very kind of you--seeing as how we need your permission, and all.
 
Personally I think the fact that it is Trek makes it so it's NOT confining. I've watch star trek almost my entire life. I've seen every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. I've seen all the movies, and most of ENT. And granted, they are in storage, but I own them all. If there is one thing that Trek has taught me to do, it is to push those confines. It makes me think of what it would be like to be out there, finding these new worlds.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I don't think it is. And although I try to fit my stories in with what is known about trek, there are still countless worlds of the imagination to explore. In the minds eye, there are no boundaries. Only puzzles yet to be solved.
 
I used to write fanfic as a hobby or for RPG campagins. Still tinker with ideas from time to time as a time-waster when I'm not working on my own projects. It was fun, and that was the key thing for me, that it be fun.

Nowadays, I find that I can't really write fanfiction anymore, cause whatever idea I come up with evolves into being part of my original work, or spinning off into a original idea itself. But I will say that writing fanfiction gave me an appreciation for world-building and working within a larger framework; where the pieces all have to interlock and work together within a defined "universe".
 
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