Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the same

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Prior to the Enterprise destroying the Borg sphere in the past, the Borg fired on the surface of Earth, killing and injuring people. Many of the people killed were people who worked on the warp ship.

These people would (obviously) do no more work on the warp project, and have no future children. I assume that Lily was one of the three people aboard the warp ship when it made it's first flight, that both Riker and LaForge were on the flight means (imo) that the person who originally was the third crewmember was killed (or injured), otherwise they would have been in the position that they were trained for. With only Lily having to be replaced.

Removing that many people from the on-going timeline, several of them talented warp designers and engineers, had to have had some effect on the future.

I'm sticking with the position that this is a predestination paradox. The Enterprise-E (and the Borg) were always part of those past events. There was never a timeline where they were not. So no matter how many people on 2063 Earth were killed by the Borg, they were always killed. There wasn't an "original" timeline where they survived. And thus the Phoenix was always crewed by Cochrane, Riker and LaForge. You can't prove this wasn't the case, after all...

And since they returned to the same future they left, it would seem to support this opinion.

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Apparently not. Up to the new Star Trek,

Spoiler: the Augments

had normal blood. Then they had new blood that can cure the sick and revive the dead.

This ability was not mentioned before now, but every other aspect, save for one, of them was. That one was sexual performance. As a superhuman, was Khan truly better in bed than Kirk? It was never explored. Regardless, this would place the divergence taking place over 300 years before Star Trek.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

[VOICE=George Takei] Oh myyyyy...[/VOICE]

We're really gonna get into that subject? That's a whole 'nother topic for a whole 'nother message board. Good luck finding a woman who's, er...sampled both and could tell you.

Oh, and - you might to throw a SPOILER TAG on that post, throwback.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

And since they returned to the same future they left, it would seem to support this opinion.

We have no way of knowing this.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

^ It sure seems so. Prove it's not.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Anyway, if you prefer the Prime Timeline to be immutable then you can adduce as evidence the fact that Futurespock's ship uses stardates in the Abramscerse format and not the established xxxxx.xx format.

I'm not sure how relevant that is. Is it inconceivable that stardating conventions changed or became open to multiple variants sometime between 2379 and 2387?

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Sisko goes into the past, takes the place of Bell, returns to the future, and it's his face, not Bell's, that one sees when reading this man's biography. Yet, the future he returns to is the one we know. Changes in timeline don't have to be major; they can be as small as a change in image.

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

On the question of stardates in 2387, the comics muddled the water, so to speak. We have both systems in place.

We know that stardates were in use in the 2240s, according to the original series. (And, if we take 1277.1 to be Kirk's birth stardate, and not the date he became captain, then this pushes the date of use for stardates to the 2230s.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Sisko goes into the past, takes the place of Bell, returns to the future, and it's his face, not Bell's, that one sees when reading this man's biography. Yet, the future he returns to is the one we know. Changes in timeline don't have to be major; they can be as small as a change in image.

And it could also be argued that Sisko was always Bell.

We did see a 'real' Bell back in 2024, but that was it. In the 24th century, nobody checked Bell's records and saw that version. The only time anyone did that, it was after all the time travelling was over, somebody checked the image of Bell and saw Sisko. So how do we know that Sisko wasn't always supposed to be Bell? Another predestination paradox.

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

We don't know what images there were preserved of Bell. I could estimate based on how our society is now, and say that there was at least one photo of Bell. It is stated that at the end of the episode that Sisko might have to explain to Starfleet how a picture of him from the 21st century existed, and how it became attached to the historical record surrounding Gabriel Bell.

 

[Third Nacelle]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I'd say that any time travel that doesn't result in MAJOR changes to the timeline is of the predestination variety. Small changes propagate big changes. A butterfly can cause a hurricane. Data's head is buried beneath San Francisco right now, and always has been, because Time's Arrow happened before itself. Same with Sisko as Bell.

 

[throwback]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I have attempted to produce proof. The proof has been rejected. Does anyone else have proof that they like to share?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I'd say that any time travel that doesn't result in MAJOR changes to the timeline is of the predestination variety. Small changes propagate big changes. A butterfly can cause a hurricane. Data's head is buried beneath San Francisco right now, and always has been, because Time's Arrow happened before itself. Same with Sisko as Bell.

Old Spock rescuing Data's head in the alternate reality would be a cool story.

DATA'S SEVERED HEAD: "The events of this era do not match the descriptions in my historical files."

OLD SPOCK: "Yeah... my bad."

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Data's head is buried beneath San Francisco right now, and always has been, because Time's Arrow happened before itself. Same with Sisko as Bell.

That's the beauty of it. When nuData travels to meet Mark Twain, he'll leave a second head in the cave, leaving himself with heads to choose from in the future, and two memories to switch between. I am a bit confused as to how the two Bells would play out.

 

[TOSTNGDS9VOYENT]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave. Maybe Sisko never goes back either, in which case that history would play out differently and very well could effect the timeline before Nero. Nero exits black hole which in turn changes both Data and Siskos destinys, which means what they did in the past never happens, which means that the past is changed too, which means that the Kelvin that gets toasted in 2233 is already an alternate Kelvin. Don't you just love paradoxes?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave. Maybe Sisko never goes back either, in which case that history would play out differently and very well could effect the timeline before Nero. Nero exits black hole which in turn changes both Data and Siskos destinys, which means what they did in the past never happens, which means that the past is changed too, which means that the Kelvin that gets toasted in 2233 is already an alternate Kelvin. Don't you just love paradoxes?

But wouldn't the Abramsverse be considered to have happened after all those events transpired?

 

[Third Nacelle]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Star Trek writers should have gotten together a long, long time ago and hammered out a manual on exactly how time travel works and what the effects are.

It all gives me a headache.

 

[Ovation]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Wouldn't matter. Any time travel story, examined closely enough, falls apart in terms of story satisfaction.

The only way to dodge the issue is for a time traveler to remain wherever (or whenever) he ends up and for the viewer to never see the era left behind again.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Star Trek writers should have gotten together a long, long time ago and hammered out a manual on exactly how time travel works and what the effects are. It all gives me a headache.

And miss all the opportunities to torment Janeway? No, thanks.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

(shrugs) I'm perfectly happy with the theory that time travel into the past always involves jumping to an alternate timeline, but in most cases the timeline is so similar to the one you left as to be essentially the same.

"Parallels" even establishes how you can determine whether you're in the timeline you started out in and one way you could return.