Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the same

[beamMe]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

So when Nero changed the future, he changed the past...there isn't necessarily a Data in this new future to leave his head in the past. Or maybe a Data exists, but didn't experence those events. Or there is a Data head in the past...but it's the new timeline's version of Data and his head in the new past.

It really doesn't matter what happens with "nuData". It's Prime Data's head. We don't need a hypothetical future Abramsverse Data to leave his head in the past, because the Prime Data head is already there.

Let's try a different hypothetical: In City on the Edge of Forever, if the Guardian had been able to send Kirk and Spock just a few minutes into the past, so they could stop McCoy from ever jumping back in time, would McCoy still be present in the 1930 in that new timeline where he's prevented from going back?

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

City would seem to feature at least three timelines-

1) The normal one up to the point where Our Heroes beam down to the planet and never return.

2) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and wasn't stopped.

3) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and was stopped, which is almost indistinguishable from the original timeline.

If the Guardian had sent Our Heroes back just a few minutes, then we'd have-

1) The original timeline.
2) The timeline McCoy altered.
3) The timeline where Our Heroes stop McCoy.

There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it just won't be the one where Our Heroes ultimately end up.

 

[beamMe]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

City would seem to feature at least three timelines-

1) The normal one up to the point where Our Heroes beam down to the planet and never return.

2) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and wasn't stopped.

3) The one where McCoy ventured into the past and was stopped, which is almost indistinguishable from the original timeline.

If the Guardian had sent Our Heroes back just a few minutes, then we'd have-

1) The original timeline.
2) The timeline McCoy altered.
3) The timeline where Our Heroes stop McCoy.

There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it just won't be the one where Our Heroes ultimately end up.

In number three he doesn't.
And that's the point: If he's prevented from going back into the past, he can't be there anyway just because he was there in another timeline.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

That's what I'm saying. There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it's just not the one Our Heroes find themselves in at the end if they stop McCoy before he goes through the Guardian. But in a different timeline he did.

The only way there could not be such a timeline would be if McCoy hadn't gone through the Guardian in timeline 1.

 

[beamMe]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

That's what I'm saying. There will always be a timeline where McCoy ventured into the past, it's just not the one Our Heroes find themselves in at the end if they stop McCoy before he goes through the Guardian. But in a different timeline he did.

The only way there could not be such a timeline would be if McCoy hadn't gone through the Guardian in timeline 1.

Timey wimey stuff. It's complicated

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Also true. I'm still having trouble understanding the X theory mentioned above.

 

[Relayer1]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

For me, Data's head is there. We'll probably get a Trek Lit book featuring it somewhere down the road when they're allowed to start playing in the Abramsverse.

And let's not forget - Spock Prime melded with Picard so he may well know it's there !

Timey wimey stuff. It's complicated

Yup. And Wibbly.

Not sure about Wobbly though...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Also true. I'm still having trouble understanding the X theory mentioned above.

Is it similar to what I floated here?

Who knows? Perhaps all the differences in the JJverse are due to an interconnected web of temporal-mechanical influences crisscrossing back and forth throughout the Prime universe that becomes unraveled when Nero's lightening storm opens up.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Did you just ask me to comment on whether one theory I acknowledged I was having trouble following is comparable to another?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Not intentionally!

Perhaps bryce will clarify? It might help me understand the X better, for example if he said it was, or similar to, what I suggested.

I mean, it looks like it is similar to what I said there. But I wonder whether X is really the right letter. One of those messed up letters from Dr. Seuss's On Beyond Zebra! might be more apt.

 

[HaventGotALife]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

as the tos unverse? Or is this spock prime born universe different from the beginning? I know that anything is just probably conjecture at this point. Have the writers ever mentioned this?

That's what's assumed. I mean, as long as you accept Enterprise as a true prequel and the Enterprise-D didn't change the universe in Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the Movie), DS9's Past Tense, Scotty in IV etc. They did play with the timeline in the 23rd and 24th Centuries which may explain the differences in technology we see in Enterprise versus the 23rd Century Enterprise.

So things may be more or less the same. But it's easy to explain away differences by the other changes in the timeline.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

This business about Data's head is fundamentally no different from any other paradox introduced by time travel - throwing in the "alternate universe" bit is a distraction. It's the same causality problem.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Maybe, in a vein similar to TNG: Parallels, there are two (or more) versions of the JJverse, one with Data's head and one without it!

There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.

This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.

But it could disappear, just as it might not disappear, where by "disappear" I mean never have been in that cave as it was in TNG. beamMe's version of temporal mechanics makes at least as much sense as any other in Star Trek.

Until a movie or episode airs that settles the question canonically, the head might or might not be there.

In that sense, it's like Schrödinger's cat, except it's Schrödinger's head. Or Spot's head, if you like.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

And let's not forget - Spock Prime melded with Picard so he may well know it's there !

But didn't that mind meld happen before Time's Arrow?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

And let's not forget - Spock Prime melded with Picard so he may well know it's there !

But didn't that mind meld happen before Time's Arrow?

Yup.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

So, my take on this is that a descendant of this guy was a member of the Federation Council subcommittee of standardization and was a proponent of the Earth-centric stardate system based on Terran years and had the swing vote. He was also a big supporter of larger, more bulkier starship designs. If NuBones doesn't go through the Guardian, this guy lives, and his descendant is born.

 

[Relayer1]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

And let's not forget - Spock Prime melded with Picard so he may well know it's there !

But didn't that mind meld happen before Time's Arrow?

I'll take your word for it - I have no idea whatsoever.

Just watched a BBC interview with JJ where he unequivocally (re)confirmed that the new films in NO way overwrite or cancel the original timeline.

That ends that discussion for me...

 

[Ovation]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

And let's not forget - Spock Prime melded with Picard so he may well know it's there !

But didn't that mind meld happen before Time's Arrow?

I'll take your word for it - I have no idea whatsoever.

Just watched a BBC interview with JJ where he unequivocally (re)confirmed that the new films in NO way overwrite or cancel the original timeline.

That ends that discussion for me...

Someone should send a copy to Levar Burton. Should bring down his blood pressure.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I don't really see what difference it would make. Hadn't that message already gotten out after the last film, in the form of statements from Orci in addition to things like Countdown and Star Trek Online?

 

[shapeshifter]

Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

He may have just paid too much attention to the people expressing butthurt until he began to believe their propaganda then, (in the interest of maintaining good relations with his following) felt obligated to become a mouthpiece.

Hell, on a few occasional, they almost convinced me.