Is Enterprise Canon?

[Luther Sloan]

But can't that be said of any series with time travel episodes?

SF Rabid:

Yes, but the other series don't exist upon the premise of some type of temporal cold war (i.e. time travel) or within the wake of huge temporal incursions, though.

The other series may have time travel incidents (or episodes) that might have had minor effects within the time line. But they were nowhere near the level of the large temporal incursions created on Enterprise. Besides, the other Trek series didn't have a long series arc based on time travel.

Here is a post that I created explaining it a bit more...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4009267&postcount=110

 

[DonIago]

I would argue that Year of Hell was.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Year of Hell was not an overall time travel arc like the Temporal Cold War was on Enterprise.

Also, let's say the time line was altered within Year of Hell. How is a system within the Delta Quadrant going to effect the Alpha Quadrant? I mean, sure they might have created technology that could have influenced the Alpha Quadrant. But that didn't happen.

My point is that the changes within the other Star Trek time travel episodes are very minor in comparison to the ones we seen on Enterprise.

 

[DonIago]

Well, to play Devil's Advocate, we don't really know how changes in the DQ could affect the AQ, but given that, among other things, the Barzan wormhole and the Borg had connections to the AQ, we can't entirely rule out the possibility.

In any case, since YoH featured entire species being wiped out of existence, more than once, I'd argue that while a two-part episode isn't on the surface as significant as multiple seasons of a tv show, the events within those episodes were quite significant.

 

[Noname Given]

Year of Hell was not an overall time travel arc like the Temporal Cold War was on Enterprise.

Also, let's say the time line was altered within Year of Hell. How is a system within the Delta Quadrant going to effect the Alpha Quadrant? I mean, sure they might have created technology that could have influenced the Alpha Quadrant. But that didn't happen.

My point is that the changes within the other Star Trek time travel episodes are very minor in comparison to the ones we seen on Enterprise.

However, from what I read Braga originally WANTED Year of Hell to be a season long VOY arc, but at the time TPTB said no.

And, as for the:

My point is that the changes within the other Star Trek time travel episodes are very minor in comparison to the ones we seen on Enterprise.

Really? What about the DS9 episode Past Tense, where in the end Sosko IS FOUND to have been Gabriel Bell in history as well as historical fact (as evidenced by the video shot where the characters discuss Sisko having to explain this fact to Starfleet?

Also, in point of fact - the only episode that shows a major event change is Shockwave where Daniels informs Archer that the destryed colony incident NEVER happened. While there was a lot more time travel episodes in ENT's 4 seasons, there wasn't any more alterration of history then in previous Star Trek time travel episodes dating all the way back to City on The Edge of Forever. Please show me one major Star Trek timeline event change that occured becauuse of ENT's time travel episodes that compare with either the DS9 episode listed above, or hell, the timeline change in First Contact the film - which have 24th century characters being a part of Zefrim Chochrane's first warp flight?

 

[DonIago]

First Contact was a predestination paradox.

 

[Luther Sloan]

However, from what I read Braga originally WANTED Year of Hell to be a season long VOY arc, but at the time TPTB said no.

Noname Given:

Braga could have wished for a "Year of Hell" Season all he wanted. It didn't happen, though. Besides, even if it did. Like I said before. Such an event would have more than likely not have effected the Alpha Quadrant. But that's water under the bridge now.

Really? What about the DS9 episode Past Tense, where in the end Sosko IS FOUND to have been Gabriel Bell in history as well as historical fact (as evidenced by the video shot where the characters discuss Sisko having to explain this fact to Starfleet?

I wouldn't call that event a major change because (besides that one detail) history still turned out relatively the same.

In other words: Sisko (and we as an audience) would have been the first to notice any other major changes within the time line when Sisko replaced Gabriel Bell. So obviously it didn't matter who Gabriel Bell was. Just as long as someone played out his role in that particular point in history for it to turn out relatively the same (as we know it).

Also, in point of fact - the only episode that shows a major event change is Shockwave where Daniels informs Archer that the destryed colony incident NEVER happened. While there was a lot more time travel episodes in ENT's 4 seasons, there wasn't any more alterration of history then in previous Star Trek time travel episodes dating all the way back to City on The Edge of Forever. Please show me one major Star Trek timeline event change that occured becauuse of ENT's time travel episodes that compare with either the DS9 episode listed above, or hell, the timeline change in First Contact the film - which have 24th century characters being a part of Zefrim Chochrane's first warp flight?

I've already written a post on Star Trek's time episodes in comparison to Enterprise. You can check it out here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4009267&postcount=110

However, to add to the argument I already presented: The Xindi Attack was brought about by the Sphere Builders who were apart of the Temporal Cold War. And the Xindi Incident was not erased from the time line but continued to exist (as shown to us in ENT's "Home"). This suggests that a major incident (that wasn't supposed to have happened) effected the time line. Which means we are probably looking at an alternate time line and not the prime time line.

In other words: if there are only minor changes or deviations in the time line, I consider it to be a part of the prime time line because there are no huge differences within the time line. If there are major influences or changes in the time line as presented to us within Enterprise: I consider that to be an alternate time line.

First Contact was a predestination paradox.

DonIago:

Yes. It is labeled as such because it is still setting those events in motion within that point in history. However, that doesn't mean that the time travel incident in First Contact didn't create a diverging time line, though.

To read further on the subject, check out my posts here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4008200&postcount=107

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4009335&postcount=111


Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Carpenter_Street_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Home

 

[Luther Sloan]

^ Some good points there, although the bit about "No viewscreens" is hardly definitive. They never said that the concept of the viewscreen did not exist. Only that no human, Vulcan or ally ever saw a Romulan. It could just as easily be that the Romulans simply refused all attempts at communication. Which would fit in nicely with Spock's line about "nor was there visual communication".

Mr Laser Beam:

Spock said, "primitive ships that had no visual ship to ship communication." If the Earth Romulan War had view screens that didn't work, Spock would have said, "ships that had no working visual ship to ship communication" instead. If the Romulans refused all visual communication, Spock would have said, "primitive ships that were refused visual ship to ship communication", then.

Also, Spock was talking about the technology of the Earth ships in his sentence (i.e. which is one complete thought). The word primitive used twice within his sentence suggests he is talking about a vessel that is a lot less advanced technologically.

In fact, I remember at the early creation of the show that there was a rumor going around that there was going to be no view screens. This suggests that the creators or studio was aware of Spock's line.

However, unfortunately that didn't happen.

 

[SFRabid]

Since when does Spock dictate canon? He ist he first character I remember to violate it.

 

[DonIago]

I do enjoy it when people claim to know what the characters would have said.

""primitive ships that had no visual ship to ship communication." could just as easily mean "primitive ships that engaged in no visual ship to ship communication."

 

[Luther Sloan]

Since when does Spock dictate canon? He ist he first character I remember to violate it.

SF Rabid:

I get it. Your trying to prove your point that imagination is an important thing within interpreting canon when it comes into conflict with other canon. But again, it has to be tempered by primarily logic of what the words originally mean by looking at the sentence itself and all the words within the scene and looking at the episode overall and what it meant when it first aired. Imagination on Star Trek's canon is a nice small little tool, but it only can go so far as logic dictates. At least in my opinion, anyways.

I do enjoy it when people claim to know what the characters would have said.

""primitive ships that had no visual ship to ship communication." could just as easily mean "primitive ships that engaged in no visual ship to ship communication."

DonIago:

Well, in my fanon opinion:

You have to look at what Spock was talking about within the sentence itself. Usually, a sentence tries to make a point about one complete thought. Spock's thought in that sentence was in reference about how primitively different the technology was. It wasn't trying to make two separate diverging thoughts.

For example if I said that I had... "a primitive car in the 80s that had no car phone to phone communications" You would automatically understand that I was talking about a junker vehicle that didn't have a car phone in it.

Now, if I had a junker vehicle that had a broken car phone in it. Don't you think I would have mentioned that little detail to you? Especially, if I said that I had no car phone to phone communications?

However, if it was my intention to confuse you or keep information from you, sure. I wouldn't mention it. But Spock was telling the entire crew about a historical event. He wouldn't leave such an important detail out in his speech.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Spock said, "primitive ships that had no visual ship to ship communication."

No, he said "Nor was there even ship to ship visual communication". Those were his specific words.

He didn't say it wasn't possible, just that it didn't happen.

 

[Noname Given]

I wouldn't call that event a major change because (besides that one detail) history still turned out relatively the same.

In other words: Sisko (and we as an audience) would have been the first to notice any other major changes within the time line when Sisko replaced Gabriel Bell. So obviously it didn't matter who Gabriel Bell was. Just as long as someone played out his role in that particular point in history for it to turn out relatively the same (as we know it).

Also, in point of fact - the only episode that shows a major event change is Shockwave where Daniels informs Archer that the destryed colony incident NEVER happened. While there was a lot more time travel episodes in ENT's 4 seasons, there wasn't any more alterration of history then in previous Star Trek time travel episodes dating all the way back to City on The Edge of Forever. Please show me one major Star Trek timeline event change that occured becauuse of ENT's time travel episodes that compare with either the DS9 episode listed above, or hell, the timeline change in First Contact the film - which have 24th century characters being a part of Zefrim Chochrane's first warp flight?

I've already written a post on Star Trek's time episodes in comparison to Enterprise. You can check it out here...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4009267&postcount=110

However, to add to the argument I already presented: The Xindi Attack was brought about by the Sphere Builders who were apart of the Temporal Cold War. And the Xindi Incident was not erased from the time line but continued to exist (as shown to us in ENT's "Home"). This suggests that a major incident (that wasn't supposed to have happened) effected the time line. Which means we are probably looking at an alternate time line and not the prime time line.

In other words: if there are only minor changes or deviations in the time line, I consider it to be a part of the prime time line because there are no huge differences within the time line. If there are major influences or changes in the time line as presented to us within Enterprise: I consider that to be an alternate time line.

^^^^^
Sorry, you entire line of reasoning is a fallacy. JUST because the Xindi attack on Earth was not mentioned prior to Enterprise is DOESN'T MEAN the events in Federation history were changed by or during ANY episode of Eneterprise - and sorry again, but the fact the Sisko allowed the original person to die, and then proceed with events as he recalled them IS a major timeline change that was SHOWN on screen. Agauin, all you assumptions aside, I would say:

Show me ONE major stated historical event that was CHANGED by events in an Enterprise episode. Seriously. In all honestly, the only 'major' continuity gaffe that I could see in ENT withg regard top later (timeline wise Star Trek was the fact that Romulans were shown with Cloaking Tech prior to the first Earth/Romulan War). There are INDEED some times they skirted the line, but that was the one clear time they objectively 'crossed' it.

And BTW - the is something ALL Star Treks have done. TNG had a MAJOR timeline re-wirte in it's first season. In TOS and was pretty clearly infetred that there was a Third and a FOURTH World War (both in Space Seed; The Omega Glory and The Savage Curtin); and that one or both of these world wars occured EARLY (before 2020); yet in the TNG pilot - the third world was was moved back a few decades; and the fourth world war (mentioned by Mr. Spock himself) NEVER HAPPENED - yet, I don't see TNG's canonicity questioned at all.

But again, my honest question to you:

Show me ONE major stated historical event that was CHANGED by events in an Enterprise episode.

 

[Tiberius]

Gah. Since when does a single line have more weight than an ENTIRE SERIES? Especially when that line is vague as to what it actually means.

 

[KottenFutz]

Gah. Since when does a single line have more weight than an ENTIRE SERIES? Especially when that line is vague as to what it actually means.

YES,
Especially a line written by someone 40 years ago just happy to collect a paycheck doing something cool like writing for a sci-fi show, never once knowing it would be scrutinized so passionately. Paul Schneider probably doesn't even get residuals or royalties, and he should, considering how much this single line is thrown about, the dude would be a millionaire.

 

[Saquist]

I do enjoy it when people claim to know what the characters would have said.

""primitive ships that had no visual ship to ship communication." could just as easily mean "primitive ships that engaged in no visual ship to ship communication."

That's under the veil of interpretation.

There is what what the sentence says.
Then there is what the sentence is interpreted as.

You can interpret the sentence all kinds of ways..but it's always implying more than the meaning of the words used.

In other words the difference between translation and interpretation.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Sorry, you entire line of reasoning is a fallacy. JUST because the Xindi attack on Earth was not mentioned prior to Enterprise is DOESN'T MEAN the events in Federation history were changed by or during ANY episode of Eneterprise

Noname Given:

In Carpenter Street: Daniels said to Archer that The Xindi Attack was never supposed to have happened within the 22nd Century. Also we learn that the Sphere Builders are apart of the Temporal Cold War, too. And the Xindi Attack was never erased in the time line (As shown to us in the episode titled "Home").

So we are looking at an altered time line that had a very significant change where a ton of people died.

Also, if you haven't seen it, here is a link to Enterprise's canon breakers (that essentially pushes me into the alternate time line camp for Enterprise)...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997372&postcount=224

 

[Saquist]

Sorry, you entire line of reasoning is a fallacy. JUST because the Xindi attack on Earth was not mentioned prior to Enterprise is DOESN'T MEAN the events in Federation history were changed by or during ANY episode of Eneterprise

Noname Given:

In Carpenter Street: Daniels said to Archer that The Xindi Attack was never supposed to have happened within the 22nd Century. Also we learn that the Sphere Builders are apart of the Temporal Cold War, too. And the Xindi Attack was never erased in the time line (As shown to us in the episode titled "Home").

So we are looking at an altered time line that had a very significant change where a ton of people died.

Also, if you haven't seen it, here is a link to my canon breakers on Enterprise (which makes my case even stronger)...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3997372&postcount=224

They should have emphasized that those events should never have happened.

 

[Luther Sloan]

This is more or less part of the scene from Carpenter Street.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We don't know anything about Daniels. We don't know if HIS version of history is supposed to be the same as the normal Trek continuity. For all we know, he comes from a timeline that's totally different. We can't trust him.