I actually see Odo a lot like you describe Data (which I totally see and pretty much agree with), where all the human bits that are not emotional personal stuff (which he is still an emotional being, he feels love and loyalty etc) are a facade he presents for other people, while not at all understanding it. I mean even on a basic level, he assumes a humanoid shape, he could actually go for something different, tentacles maybe. I think a lot of the distance he keeps is based on that... like he's trying to keep an observer's perspective on a subject (though I also see his emotional stuff in there too). He often "lumps" humanoids together, regardless of species, because he sees their similarities so much more than most, esp compared to himself. I especially liked early on when he didn't (appear?) to have quarters, just his "pail" and seemed perfectly fine with that and other things that were particular to him and being a changeling. then later on when he's taken to assuming different shapes on his off hours, to explore "being" other things. Like he's not particularly interested in being any more humanoid than he already is, which is a bit different than Data (and even Spock, he grew to appreciate a lot of "human" qualities, and was happy to adopt them).
Is Data too ”inexperienced” sometimes?
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I actually see Odo a lot like you describe Data (which I totally see and pretty much agree with), where all the human bits that are not emotional personal stuff (which he is still an emotional being, he feels love and loyalty etc) are a facade he presents for other people, while not at all understanding it. I mean even on a basic level, he assumes a humanoid shape, he could actually go for something different, tentacles maybe. I think a lot of the distance he keeps is based on that... like he's trying to keep an observer's perspective on a subject (though I also see his emotional stuff in there too). He often "lumps" humanoids together, regardless of species, because he sees their similarities so much more than most, esp compared to himself. I especially liked early on when he didn't (appear?) to have quarters, just his "pail" and seemed perfectly fine with that and other things that were particular to him and being a changeling. then later on when he's taken to assuming different shapes on his off hours, to explore "being" other things. Like he's not particularly interested in being any more humanoid than he already is, which is a bit different than Data (and even Spock, he grew to appreciate a lot of "human" qualities, and was happy to adopt them).
Absolutely yes. Data has incredible processing power. His ability to solve problems should almost always beat out human solutions, or at least rival them. So when he's "stumped" at times where the answer is obvious to US, the viewer, it's irritating. Wesley shouldn't be figuring out solutions that Data would've come up with in much less time. It's all part of the story telling... can't have Data win the day every time. But, they could have been more sensitive to this. I think where Data would come up short is in imagination, where a solution to the problem requires thinking outside the box of logic. But we see him fail to come up with solutions that would've been well within his abilities as depicted.
While true for situations in which processing power is the main issue, that's true, when it regards any number of things that are, for lack of a better word, human, then I don't think it's relevant, you'll just get to an incorrect answer faster.
But you see, "incorrect" is a misnomer here. Data shouldn't make mistakes. For solutions, it's always the matter of "best" versus "mediocre" or "worst". Remember in "Cause and Effect" when Data didn't have the best solution, but it was Riker who did. Data did the logical thing -- considered the tractor beam. But Riker had the better solution, decompressing the main shuttle bay. However... oddly enough, Data DID have a workable solution. Had he just done it, instead of "offering up" the solution, he'd have shaved off those few precious seconds wasted and the tractor beam would have diverted the ship. But because he wasted time offering it up, waiting for the Captain to acknowledge, he was too late. And consider this -- Data multi-processes. He could have easily calculated the trajectory and speed of the USS Boseman, the power of the tractor beam, and the amount of time required to clear the ship... and figured out he needed to do it right away, or else the window of opportunity would be lost. THIS was a dead-on case for my issue with Data's depiction in TNG.
Technically, Data did a have a solution -- it just wasn't the right one.
But I can believe Data is fallible. He was made by a man who himself was fallible. You're not going to get "perfect" from a source less than perfect itself, in artificial life. The results will always not be what you hoped for (well, in my view).
But I can believe Data is fallible. He was made by a man who himself was fallible. You're not going to get "perfect" from a source less than perfect itself, in artificial life. The results will always not be what you hoped for (well, in my view).
How much of Data's naïvete is measured behavior? By desing, he's supposed to act unthreatening and a bit clownish (and look the part!) so that the Omicron Ceti colonists wouldn't lynch him; this probably doesn't come naturally for an AI. If Data has learned to be an affable idiot, it's far from said that he would have learned how to slowly grow out of it. After all, that's not natural at all: he needs no growing, and could come of age simply by dropping the idiot act overnight.
Under Picard's wing, Data nevertheless is growing, or at least learning to fake growing. But it may be difficult to keep that act together, meaning there are relapses into the original programming all the time.
How much of Dixon Hill or Sherlock Holmes or the Swaggering Husband does Data understand? My bet is all of it, and much better than the respective humans would themselves have, real or fictional. He just isn't an expert on regulating the degree to which he expresses his fullness of knowledge.
Timo Saloniemi
Under Picard's wing, Data nevertheless is growing, or at least learning to fake growing. But it may be difficult to keep that act together, meaning there are relapses into the original programming all the time.
How much of Dixon Hill or Sherlock Holmes or the Swaggering Husband does Data understand? My bet is all of it, and much better than the respective humans would themselves have, real or fictional. He just isn't an expert on regulating the degree to which he expresses his fullness of knowledge.
Timo Saloniemi
Lie I said:
"for situations in which processing power is the main issue, that's [SHOULD BE] true, when it regards any number of things that are [...] human [EMOTIONS, "logical actions" BASED ON EMOTIONS] then I don't think it's relevant, you'll just get to an "incorrect" answer faster [BASED ON AN ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION OF THINGS HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND]." Or even have a hard time getting to a conclusion, since he's missing key pieces of the puzzle, he could get stuck in mini-logical loops. I think that's what they might've thought they were going for, and then made a lot of mistakes in presenting it.
It was a bit bizarre how Data couldn't figure out how to beat the game in Peak Performance, given his incredible processing power. I guess it's a matter of Kolrami being so adept, his abilities would always pick the optimal pathway. And Data couldn't see the "humanoid failing" opportunity, where he could simply go for the stalemate and wear Kolrami down.
Btw, just an aside... anyone ever notice how small Data's quarters are? It's peculiar, given the curvature of the wall on the entrance side. If the curvature was to represent the outer hull, it's the wrong side. Thus, it looks like Data stays in some utility room that was converted for his use. Of course, Data being an android would mean he wouldn't need a full service room (a bed, shower, commode, sink, etc) and he apparently doesn't need a view. From what I recall, it was never addressed directly in the show.
Btw, just an aside... anyone ever notice how small Data's quarters are? It's peculiar, given the curvature of the wall on the entrance side. If the curvature was to represent the outer hull, it's the wrong side. Thus, it looks like Data stays in some utility room that was converted for his use. Of course, Data being an android would mean he wouldn't need a full service room (a bed, shower, commode, sink, etc) and he apparently doesn't need a view. From what I recall, it was never addressed directly in the show.
Well, he does have his own science lab... I think Data's quarters vary depending on the episode. They had one modular "quarters" set that they switched around for each character. The room with the rounded wall is a set from The Motion Picture(I believe).
In Peak Performance, when Kolrami says "you made a mockery..." I always think he's going to say "...this game," or the name of the game, but he says "You made a mockery of me," which is strange, because Data did make a mockery of the game, by not following the goal of the game. It's basically cheating.
In Peak Performance, when Kolrami says "you made a mockery..." I always think he's going to say "...this game," or the name of the game, but he says "You made a mockery of me," which is strange, because Data did make a mockery of the game, by not following the goal of the game. It's basically cheating.
^ I think you're right. What was captured above must've been Data's lab... although it wasn't explicitly referred to as that in several episodes. Maybe it was presumed he didn't need quarters at first and only got them later on. I do know that he had more normalized looking quarters later on, like in Seasons 6 & 7.
I've sometimes thought that they should have combined the Wesley and Data characters into a Ensign or Lieutenant JG "blueshirt" as this would fit the role and character of early Data better.
There was a scene on the Sutherland where Data's behavior didn't come across as credible, imo. It was when Hobson told Data that he didn't want to serve under Data's command. Hobson asked to be transferred. Hobson wasn't subtle about it. He told Data that he didn't think an android was fit to serve as a ship's captain.
Data responded by bluntly denying Hobson's request. And there was no further discussion. Data's reaction to Hobson seemed out of character.
When Data encounters a situation that is unfamiliar or a scenario that is not necessary rooted in logic, Data makes a big deal about it. He wants to know why. He asks questions. It seemed to me that Hobson's open hostility to Data being captain would have led Data to act naïve, to inquire further why Hobson held such beliefs and what motivated Hobson to be like that. That is Data's typical m.o.
But in that instance, Data dropped his idiot act.
It isn't an "idiot act". It's a way of acquiring information - probably sometimes even additional information about circumstances he actually has encountered before - which is something a very intelligent person is willing to do: set aside ego to gain knowledge. (See also: Columbo) But doing that also lends the person you are making your queries to a certain amount of authority in the situation, and presumably Data knew that was less appropriate when he was in command, and even less so when someone was questioning his command authority.
I think that scene was fine, Data dismissed Hobson's reasons for wanting a transfer because Hobson's opinion (rather than his capibilities) were irrelevant to the situation at hand (the decision had been made by Picard, who outranked both) so he opted not to 'indulge' his curiousity by questioning further.
However, the later scene where Data appeared to lose his temper and shout at Hobson, that was out of character. IMO.
However, the later scene where Data appeared to lose his temper and shout at Hobson, that was out of character. IMO.
Yep. Should be simple enough to create an "idiomatic expressions" subroutine or a "contractions" subroutine. Data may not be able to understand humor, but he can surely absorb all the data in a joke book or two. He could even create a "humor" subroutine that checks verbal communications with this subroutine and determine when someone is joking vs. being serious. He still doesn't understand the concept, but the conversation is flagged as "probability 98% humorous expression."
About that Redemption thing...
Data and Redemption part 2, I think Data was himself except once. Data got angry (or at least acted like it) with Hobson when Hobson didn't fire torpedoes as Data ordered.
Data and Redemption part 2, I think Data was himself except once. Data got angry (or at least acted like it) with Hobson when Hobson didn't fire torpedoes as Data ordered.
I've always felt that Data should've been the one to have the forbidden affair with Soren, instead of Riker. It makes much more sense and been a far better episode, for it.
I think Data was just mimicking that kind of reaction, as he figured that was the only way to get Hobson to act.
Kor
Hobson's hostility to Data being his commanding officer could have had a negative effect on Hobson's ability to serve under Data. Hobson's lack of confidence in Data's fitness to be captain could have effected his willingness to faithfully carry out Data's orders. Imo, Hobson's state of mind was relevant.
The two didn't know each other. It wouldn't have been inappropriate or odd for Data to inquire further (that would be in his nature to do so anyway), at least, to make himself confident that Hobson would be a professional in carrying out his orders and in performing the 1st officer's duties. As I already said, Data's behavior seemed somewhat out of character.
Anyway, Data got the job of captain of the Sutherland by sort of playing a passive aggressive game with Picard. Data acted naive when he told Picard that he was confused as to why Picard didn't assign Data command of a ship. Then he proceeded to list the reasons why he was qualified to command. It almost sounded like a guilt trip he was laying on Picard.
Data didn't come across as naïve in that situation. In that episode, Data seemed just as ambitious and calculating as any human could have been.
The two didn't know each other. It wouldn't have been inappropriate or odd for Data to inquire further (that would be in his nature to do so anyway), at least, to make himself confident that Hobson would be a professional in carrying out his orders and in performing the 1st officer's duties. As I already said, Data's behavior seemed somewhat out of character.
Anyway, Data got the job of captain of the Sutherland by sort of playing a passive aggressive game with Picard. Data acted naive when he told Picard that he was confused as to why Picard didn't assign Data command of a ship. Then he proceeded to list the reasons why he was qualified to command. It almost sounded like a guilt trip he was laying on Picard.
Data didn't come across as naïve in that situation. In that episode, Data seemed just as ambitious and calculating as any human could have been.
Why did Data at like he was interacting with Humans for the first time in the early seasons of TNG? Maybe that was almost true. Maybe Data did not go to Starfleet Academy's Earth campus but to another campus on another world where most of the cadets weren't human. Maybe Data's first Starfleet assignments were on bases or ships mostly crewed by Bynars. After Data got used to working with mostly organic beings for a few years he may have been assigned to a ship or base mostly crewed by the Logians from planet Logica. After learning how to live with and work with Logians Data may have transferred to a base or ship with a more emotional crew - Vulcans. After learning to life and work with Vulcans for a few years Data may have been considered ready to live and work with Humans, though still very naive about their ways.
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