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Is a Star Trek Society Possible ?

Genetically modified crops are the closest we will get to replicator technology in terms of providing for people i.e. the only way poorer people in drought-ridden areas are going to get fed in the short term, particularly as global warming speeds up. However, it costs money to research and beneficiaries must pay quite hefty amounts to use the technology under strict conditions and who knows what the wider effects will be to the environment once the genie is out of the bottle?
 
But providing for all people the basic sustenance, while transformative, still means that there is a recognisable economic world - that is, that there are rich and poor people. These are meaningful distinctions and there are luxuries and conveinences enjoyed by one not posessed by the other. It's simply not enough to result in a potentially Trek-ish world.
 
Consider the ramifications of providing for the needs of every human being. Not just the direct benefits of improving quality of life for a huge number of our fellow men/women, but the indirect and unpredictable results. Think for a moment of the developments that may arise which we cannot predict. I know that sounds contradictory, but what I mean is that even though we cannot say exactly what will happen in terms of technological and sociological developments, we can be very sure that developments will happen, that cannot happen with things as they are now. How many possible Einsteins and Planks, how many Stephen Hawkings have we lost due to childhood mortality from lack of clean water and refrigeration for medicines?

Well it would definitely create alot of demographic shifts. Poverty, war and disease would shortly become a thing of the past, which we know to be the main pre-requisite for the Star Trek society. The dismantlement of monetary economy would take more time, not least of which because dismantling it would no longer be necessary since the only reason to do so is the Marxist assumption that over-reliance on the market is part of what keeps the masses in poverty. As long as the masses are free to live as they please, no one cares about the profiteers screwing them over.
 
Would it be better to try or not to try at all then ? because if you could get enough interest surely anything is possible ?

It would be nice sure, but humanity as a whole would have to undergo a MAJOR personality change before it could happen. For one thing, money would have to go. That right there tells you that the Star Trek world is an unobtainable dream. Can you imagine rich people willingly giving up their stranglehold over the rest of us? Of course they wouldn't. Nobody in power is going to surrender that power unless forced to.

We all want to believe that people are basically good, but that's just not true. People try to be good, yes, but in the end, everybody looks out for their own interests first, and as long as this is the case, a Star Trek-like society is out.

Sad, but that's the way it is.
 
I also think that while a Trek society is possible, present culture values and the way our economics operate is not going to yield in such a future.
If you take a look at the amount of brainwashed individuals who think that money is the only answer and use it as means of power and control, it is difficult, albeit not impossible.

I think a lot of people are quite pessimistic in regard to the Trek-like future.
Look at our technological advances.
People say we achieved a lot over the past 200 years, and I agree ... still, our progress IS slow.
Money being at the core of the problem along with corporations and people in power who want to pocket as much as possible and not actually use it as they are supposed to (a notable recent example from US is how one of the ISP's claimed that broadband will most likely have to be throttled because of a higher number of users downloading large amounts of data such as viewing HQ videos online and whatnot, tv shows ...).
They also have the money to expand their network and even upgrade to 21st century standards and lose the previous generation of tech altogether which is showing it's age, yet such an idea they don't even want to contemplate.

When dealing with morons and power corrupt people, technological progress stagnates really.
Even techs that are supposed to be easier and cheaper to produce and ultimately cheaper for the consumer are slapped with premium prices at first and it takes years for them to drop ... heck sometimes they don't even drop before a new generation of tech replaces them altogether and they become obsolete.

Bottom line is, we have a lot of problems with a present system.
Change is possible, and resources are not the problem ... it's the people and money.
 
Quite independent from economic concerns, I don't think a Trek society is possible because it requires cultural ossification and a superlative degree of cultural control.

I don't think it's desirable to even try to replicate a society that succeeds in passing centuries, or millennia, with minimal alterations to itself. All other things being equal, this is not a recipe for an independent organization able to defend itself, or even one that would be regarded as a valuable partner.

(Star Trek actually demonstrates the only way a Trek society can survive as an equal to everybody else, and that is if everybody else if effectively doing the same thing and refusing to think outside the box. Needless to say, not a scenario that is likely to occur outside a fictional setting.)

Avoiding that static mentality is a major divergence from what a Trek society envisions.
 
Quite independent from economic concerns, I don't think a Trek society is possible because it requires cultural ossification and a superlative degree of cultural control.

I don't think it's desirable to even try to replicate a society that succeeds in passing centuries, or millennia, with minimal alterations to itself. All other things being equal, this is not a recipe for an independent organization able to defend itself, or even one that would be regarded as a valuable partner.

(Star Trek actually demonstrates the only way a Trek society can survive as an equal to everybody else, and that is if everybody else if effectively doing the same thing and refusing to think outside the box. Needless to say, not a scenario that is likely to occur outside a fictional setting.)

Avoiding that static mentality is a major divergence from what a Trek society envisions.

Actually ... I would sooner argue that humans in Trek effectively embraced tolerance to the highest level (while still retaining a variety of differences in opinions and how they lead their lives) and decided to cooperate and share resources instead of fighting for them and behaving like animals.

Essentially, you can still keep all of the cultural differences which people of different backgrounds will simply tolerate but not actually try to kill you or judge too hastily simply because you're different.

One thing that obviously had to have been embraced on a global scale is a new way of conducting the economic aspects.

But Trek humans also had several crucial things that happened which instigated a large change:
WWIII that wiped out most of the governments, and first contact with Vulcans that rather clearly stated they are not the centrepiece of the universe or alone in it.

You have numerous cultural values that would underwent a large change from first contact with aliens such as Vulcans.
Also, economic changes probably had to ensue as well because the previous system apparently threatened them with annihilation (not to mention the fact that technology was going through various stages of stagnation from money being an obstacle in absolutely everything).
Oh ... there was also another thing ... Humans knew that the Vulcans were keeping tech secrets from them, but in just 100 years from FC they were able to significantly close the technological gap (albeit not entirely) between them.

It's no wonder their technology is so advanced ... eliminate money from the equation, use the resources properly and switch to new technologies immediately that are viable (also using recycling in abundance) and you're set.
 
It would be fun to go back in time to the middle ages and do a poll of the inhabitants of that era, asking them if they think a hypothetical form of government called "democracy" could ever actually work. I suspect such a poll would run 10 to 1 against.
 

I think you're addressing something different than me. If we talk about technology, then you're addressing how one might go about achieving the technology of a Trek society, while I'm addressing how Trek society.

I don't think it's even important how one gets to the technology. It may take 100 years, or a thousand. But if it's possible one gets there eventually. Hence why I did not bother with discussing the development of new economic thinking, improving (hopefully) cultural tolerance, and so on and so forth.

The question is what one does with it after one gets there. That is the distinguishing aspect about the Trek society: its culture is unusually adept at resisting alteration based on the changing scientific and technological background. This is a critical, if not fatal, weakness.
 
One might say that our current culture is unusually adept at resisting change, since there is no significant difference between the structure of modern America and feudal Europe.

For hundreds of years the vast majority of this culture has worked hard merely to survive in subsistence conditions, while a tiny elite controls vast amounts of wealth and power.

Many might say there are huge differences between a serf/peasant and a modern american worker, but I think the similarities far outweigh the differences.

We have no monarchy, we get to 'choose' our leaders and get rid of them if they do not lead the way we as a majority want them to. How is a king who changes every four years different from a king for life? How many americans think and feel that the President is just another citizen serving the public? The power and wealth that goes with 'public service' in america is on a level with the 'nobility' of a feudal culture.

Compare the life of an american serf with a feudal european one. An american citizen has luxuries undreamed of by a feudal peasant, a higher quality of life, but the similarities are still enormous. Our lives are still controlled by a tiny elite, though the control is more in what we are told than by military force. We still live our lives in fear of debt, struggling for 30 years to earn enough to feed our families and have enough left to survive when we are too old to work anymore.

Children grow up being told that anyone can be President, but when was the last time we elected a President who knows what it is to work for a living? We allow ourselves to be governed by the wealthy, and wonder why the majority of us, poor by comparison, continue to grow poorer.

To anyone who claims that our society is dissimilar from a feudal one I say, the elite of today still inherit their positions from the families. Even in european feudal cultures there was social mobility, that hasn't changed. A family may lose their wealth, just as a title could be lost. Wealth can be aquired, now just as then. The point is, that wealth still separates us into the elite and the masses.

That separation is one of the defining traits of our culture that has resisted change for hundreds if not thousands of years.
 
We have no monarchy, we get to 'choose' our leaders and get rid of them if they do not lead the way we as a majority want them to. How is a king who changes every four years different from a king for life?

For starters, that "King for four years" isn't a king. He/she has limited powers. He/she cannot make laws, cannot pass judgment and is subject to law not of his/her own making.
 
:)
When Picard said (basically) in FC "we no longer have money" who at the time was we? During Kirk's time there would seem to have still been money, value for effort, the bar scene in "The Trouble with Tribbles" makes no sense with out money. Kirk's comment during TVH of "They're still using money" may have referred to physical "folding" money. In the non-canon novel "Crisis on Centaurus" Kirk didn't just recieve a small salary from star fleet, but as a starship captain was generously paid. In the TNG episode "The Price" the federation is bidding on a wormhole, with what, the opportunity to better yourself?

And during Voyager there are repeated referances to "replicator credits", the crew are given a certain number of replicator credits which they trade amongst themselves, or exchange for replicated items.

Sorry, that's money.

Maybe we've stepped away from the OP, when I think of a star trek based society, the first things I think of isn't utopia or no money or replicators. What I first think of is freedom, optimism, exploration, expansion also a ethnically diverse and culturally diverse society.


It's no wonder their technology is so advanced ... eliminate money from the equation, use the resources properly and switch to new technologies immediately that are viable (also using recycling in abundance) and you're set.
:)
Money and capitalism drives technology development, capitalism also brings prosperity and freedom to "the masses". No other system has been shown to really work. I want to live in a future with maximum freedom first. The Cardassians have replicators too and I don't associate them with freedom.


T'Girl
 
One might say that our current culture is unusually adept at resisting change, since there is no significant difference between the structure of modern America and feudal Europe.

For hundreds of years the vast majority of this culture has worked hard merely to survive in subsistence conditions, while a tiny elite controls vast amounts of wealth and power.

Many might say there are huge differences between a serf/peasant and a modern american worker, but I think the similarities far outweigh the differences.

Good God, really?:lol:

We have no monarchy, we get to 'choose' our leaders and get rid of them if they do not lead the way we as a majority want them to. How is a king who changes every four years different from a king for life?

Accountability at a level below that of armed revolution or assassination.

How many americans think and feel that the President is just another citizen serving the public? The power and wealth that goes with 'public service' in america is on a level with the 'nobility' of a feudal culture.

How many serfs live on Barack Obama's estate?

Compare the life of an american serf with a feudal european one. An american citizen has luxuries undreamed of by a feudal peasant, a higher quality of life, but the similarities are still enormous. Our lives are still controlled by a tiny elite, though the control is more in what we are told than by military force.

Not really. I do things with my life that would have gotten me killed in a feudal society. I can do them because I live in a free society. I fear no one, and can do so reasonably, exactly because I live in a free society.

We still live our lives in fear of debt, struggling for 30 years to earn enough to feed our families and have enough left to survive when we are too old to work anymore.

That's a very facile similarity, given that human beings share that struggle with every other life form that has ever existed, or ever shall exist. The difference is in the intensity of the struggle, and we are quite coddled.

Children grow up being told that anyone can be President, but when was the last time we elected a President who knows what it is to work for a living?

Lawyers don't know how to work for a living?

We allow ourselves to be governed by the wealthy, and wonder why the majority of us, poor by comparison, continue to grow poorer.

A fair point. People often vote against their interests based on prejudice, stereotypes, and just general ignorance.

To anyone who claims that our society is dissimilar from a feudal one I say, the elite of today still inherit their positions from the families.

Not to same degree.

Even in european feudal cultures there was social mobility, that hasn't changed. A family may lose their wealth, just as a title could be lost. Wealth can be aquired, now just as then. The point is, that wealth still separates us into the elite and the masses.

That separation is one of the defining traits of our culture that has resisted change for hundreds if not thousands of years.

That again is a fair point. :)

But the differences between a democracy and monarchy--rule by law, and not rule by men--are far from trivial.
 
:)
When Picard said (basically) in FC "we no longer have money" who at the time was we? During Kirk's time there would seem to have still been money, value for effort, the bar scene in "The Trouble with Tribbles" makes no sense with out money. Kirk's comment during TVH of "They're still using money" may have referred to physical "folding" money. In the non-canon novel "Crisis on Centaurus" Kirk didn't just recieve a small salary from star fleet, but as a starship captain was generously paid. In the TNG episode "The Price" the federation is bidding on a wormhole, with what, the opportunity to better yourself?

State resources. "We'll give you this planet/this technology/these two billion tons of antimatter for exclusive access to your wormhole."

And during Voyager there are repeated referances to "replicator credits", the crew are given a certain number of replicator credits which they trade amongst themselves, or exchange for replicated items.

Sorry, that's money.
The scarcity required them to reintroduce capitalist elements. Janeway is kind of like Lenin, and Voyager is kind of like the NEP.

Neelix of course is Kalinin. Useless and hairy, and for some reason Stalin (Berman) never got rid of him. :D
 
:)

Money and capitalism drives technology development, capitalism also brings prosperity and freedom to "the masses". No other system has been shown to really work. I want to live in a future with maximum freedom first. The Cardassians have replicators too and I don't associate them with freedom.


T'Girl

I don't agree with this. Every prior economic system to capitalism is equally as valid as our current system in a historic sense. In addition captalism requires perpetual growth to survive. While the hallmarks of our current economic system are both incresed wealth in the agrregate and increased concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands.

If you elimate growth, changes to the paradigm must emerge or the entire system will fall apart. Every game of Monopoly has but one outcome. We have as a planet delayed the end stage by simply enlarging the borders of the gameboard through increased settlement, resource utilitzation and population growth.

Technology will not not save us either. Gains in efficiency are by their very nature incremental and often diminishing. Growth on the other is usually exponential. These two facts are irreconcilable. I will further sumbit that that are absolute physical limits to which any physical/economic process can not overcome. Heating a mass of water or spliting chemical compounds into their consititent elements posess an absolute floor to which any gain in efficacy can not surpass owing to the laws of nature.

I don't know why Americans think that our society and its freedoms are synommous with capitalism. From the initial collanization of North America to perhaps the mid-twentith century we have never really faced any serious resource contraint. As much as material prosperity is provided by the harnessing of energy we have never had settle for an inferior substitue. From biomass to coal to oil to natural gas we have had the luxury of ever denser and higher utility fuel stocks.

In my own economic theory, energy is largely equalivant to labor value since the machines that utilitze it serve as substitues or multipliers for human effort.

We have reached the the limits of the petry dish. Peak energy, peak water, along with the stastainablity isssues of soil, fishers and the overall enviroment demand that the current economic regimn necessarily change. The logical model to transition to is a more socialisit more "trekish" model, the alternative is collapse.

Collapse may not be the end of the world but as a civilization you may never reach the zenith of prior prosperity owning to the finite raw materials which never be replaced once exausted.
 
:)
When Picard said (basically) in FC "we no longer have money" who at the time was we? During Kirk's time there would seem to have still been money, value for effort, the bar scene in "The Trouble with Tribbles" makes no sense with out money. Kirk's comment during TVH of "They're still using money" may have referred to physical "folding" money. In the non-canon novel "Crisis on Centaurus" Kirk didn't just recieve a small salary from star fleet, but as a starship captain was generously paid. In the TNG episode "The Price" the federation is bidding on a wormhole, with what, the opportunity to better yourself?

State resources. "We'll give you this planet/this technology/these two billion tons of antimatter for exclusive access to your wormhole."

QFT 'Myasishchev'
Money was stated on multiple occasions to not exist in the Federation.
Ranging from Kirk in TVH (he explicitly said to the woman that money doesn't exist in the future) all the way to Picard in FC who again said clearly 'money doesn't exist in the 24th century'.

They use a variety of resources to barter with other cultures ... in the case of the Barzan wormhole, that was meant in the capacity of exchanging resources to have access to it (which the Feds would likely share with others after deeming it was safe).
The potential for betterment T'Girl in this particular scenario was to open up a new area of the Galaxy for exploration and knowledge.

Latching onto terms we use for money today which were used in the show for all intense and purposes for jokes, is just an attempt on your part to further ignore that 'money doesn't exist in the future' because in your opinion as already stated 'any other system has proved to fail'.

And during Voyager there are repeated referances to "replicator credits", the crew are given a certain number of replicator credits which they trade amongst themselves, or exchange for replicated items.

Sorry, that's money.
The scarcity required them to reintroduce capitalist elements. Janeway is kind of like Lenin, and Voyager is kind of like the NEP.
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't argue they had to reintroduce capitalist elements.
Any sensible human being would reduce consumption of resources at their disposal if they are scarce to extend their survivability.

Also ... there was never a mention of anything like 'replicator credits' on Voyager.
'Replicator rations' were mentioned.
As for the crew asking each other to borrow repliactor rations so they can replicate some items = some of the crew were not using replicators for a while and were primarily eating Neelix's food (which is how it was meant to be to begin with), therefore, another member of the crew would give their replicator code to the one who needs it and voila.

In terms of replicators ... it's possible that replicator rations = amount of energy one can use per day or in a week.

Primary reason for replicator use being rationed was energy consumption (since replicators can convert energy into matter and back again ... or you can recycle all kinds of matter into energy for later storage) and Voyager was all alone in the DQ, so they needed to conserve energy.

T'Girl, one more thing about your glorification of capitalism:
Perhaps you haven't noticed the amount of greedy individuals in power, not to mention companies/corporations that are pocketing as much money as possible and extracting as much as possible from OUTDATED technology and not investing into new ones?
The development is incremental at best.

The US power grid is about a century out of date, ISP's throttle down speeds for using the Internet because of the copper wiring used in their network is showing it's age for one thing, lack of proper maintenance and outright refusal of switching to fiber optics for example even though they have the money to do so.
Computer technology: numerous hardware parts only come down in price only years after they became outdated, and in some parts of the world are even pulled out of the market entirely and replaced with new technology that is equally or more expensive (therefore prohibiting people with less money of acquiring them). Manufacturers don't create notebooks/laptops as very modular as it's much better for them profit-wise when a consumer buys a new laptop (which is often more expensive than a simple upgrade of components, and sometimes certain parts that you could upgrade cost as much as new system altogether).
Space shuttles: outdated internally and externally (no wonder they experienced as many problems) ... and even before NASA went to the moon, the technologies to accomplish the task were already there ... they were just brought together.

These are just some examples of your precious capitalism that spurs 'technological growth and development'.
If you think it's working, then that's great for you ... but then you are ignoring it's many negative aspects since our technology is quity simply OUT OF DATE, and hardly in sync with the 21st century.
There are tons of wasteful enterprises that are nothing but a drain on resources in a significant amount in the US alone, and yet nothing is done about them.

The only reason people mention resources as a problem is when transitions to new techs is concerned and conducting changes that would be beneficial to society ... primarily focusing on what?
Ding ding ding ... money.
Money is no longer used to regulate our resources since we reached a technological level where we can do more with less if implemented properly.
Primary obstacle is money, and people in power who prefer things as they are instead of actual change and growth.
If things would to change, it brings uncertainty and they don't like the loss of power money brings with it.
Never mind the fact that transitioning to new techs in numerous cases would result in even more money and profit on a long term basis for numerous companies.
 
State resources. "We'll give you this planet/this technology/these two billion tons of antimatter for exclusive access to your wormhole."
The argument might be made that any medium of exchange could be considered money. I will give you this item of value -- in exchange/trade for -- your item of value.

MINE: Money - Latinum - Antimatter
YOURS: Drink - Wormhole - Bolt of Cloth

The scarcity required them to reintroduce capitalist elements. Janeway is kind of like Lenin, and Voyager is kind of like the NEP.

Neelix of course is Kalinin. Useless and hairy, and for some reason Stalin (Berman) never got rid of him. :D
That would paint Chakotay in the role of Leon Trotsky, important number two at the begining, later a neglected and forgotten charactor.
 
State resources. "We'll give you this planet/this technology/these two billion tons of antimatter for exclusive access to your wormhole."
The argument might be made that any medium of exchange could be considered money. I will give you this item of value -- in exchange/trade for -- your item of value.

MINE: Money - Latinum - Antimatter
YOURS: Drink - Wormhole - Bolt of Cloth

I dunno. I think that money, strictly speaking, needs to be symbolic--representing goods, services, value of any kind. Indeed, Kirk wouldn't say that they no longer have stuff (Picard might, but he's an ideological crusader :p ).

Neelix of course is Kalinin. Useless and hairy, and for some reason Stalin (Berman) never got rid of him. :D
That would paint Chakotay in the role of Leon Trotsky, important number two at the begining, later a neglected and forgotten charactor.
:lol: If the shoe fits...
 
State resources. "We'll give you this planet/this technology/these two billion tons of antimatter for exclusive access to your wormhole."
The argument might be made that any medium of exchange could be considered money. I will give you this item of value -- in exchange/trade for -- your item of value.

MINE: Money - Latinum - Antimatter
YOURS: Drink - Wormhole - Bolt of Cloth

I dunno. I think that money, strictly speaking, needs to be symbolic--representing goods, services, value of any kind.
Sort of. Money doesn't always have REAL value, especially if you have a fiat system where the government basically orders everyone to regard a certain piece of currency as having a certain value.

Barter systems work the way they do because some goods have intrinsic value, and currency can be pegged to that for convenience sake. For instance, I once envisioned a society where the basic economic unit was distilled water: all goods were manufactured in space, and most ships used water as a propellant, which means the actual value of most products is roughly equivalent to the amount of propellant it takes to move it from one place to another.
 
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