Investigations

[Mareika]

Just watched "Investigations" and as always I`m angry and I understand Robert Beltran`s complains about his role as Chakotay and about the writers.
Not only he becomes a mockery and Janeway cheats on him, but in the end there`s no apology from her and he`s acting the same way he did before if nothing happend!!!!
This is such a bad writing!
I often hear fans comlaining about Chakotay betraying Janeway in Scorpion but nothing about her betraying him in "Investigations".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Janeway basically had to cut Chakotay out of the loop like that. She used his existing animosity with Paris to make the 'defection' more convincing. It wouldn't have been as realistic (to the real traitor they were trying to flush out) if Chakotay had been in on it - especially since the target turned out to be one of the Maquis in the first place.

 

[hux]

I often hear fans comlaining about Chakotay betraying Janeway in Scorpion but nothing about her betraying him in "Investigations".

I've never heard that.

Chakotay tried to steer the mad, frothing at the mouth, arse head away from justifying genocide. Not sure that should be seen as betrayal

It wouldn't have been as realistic (to the real traitor they were trying to flush out) if Chakotay had been in on it - especially since the target turned out to be one of the Maquis in the first place.

That's only true if Janeway and Tuvok think Chakotay is an idiot who can't act.....and since both Tuvok and Seska got onto his ship and fooled him with great ease, they probably had a point

 

[Catarina]

She didn't betray him. When security risks are involved she doesn't have to consult him in this instance. and in an AQ world, she could get back up. She said what she meant "We needed a good show." Her voice conveyed the regret of having to go there. It was risky too and could be seen badly. It was to you and Chakotay saw it as mistrust too.

I'm not implying it was a great idea. I just see her point of view.

 

[Guy Gardener]

For all Tom Accomplished, for how long it took Tom to accomplish what he accomplished a commando raid would have would have served the same purposes better and faster.

Voyager can stand up to ten cityships before she starts thinking that it's a not the smartest idea.

But seriously, that's not how it should work.

Okay, so maybe a Million Indians destroyed General Custer (His forces were 700 souls strong.), but a million Cheyenne (circa 1876) wouldn't have have made a dent in 700 soldiers and some armoured infantry commanded by General Patton, or all that man power on horse back vs. one modern Apache Helicopter armed to the teeth.

Newer is always better.

How many Two year olds would be needed to beat you up?

10? 40? 2000?

They only way even a very large group of two year olds could defeat a fully grown reasonably intelligent adult is by hundreds of 2 year olds smothering their opponent in a very enclosed space.

Janeway took the fight to the Borg who were ignoring her.

Why didn't she take the fight to the Kazon who were chasing and hounding the #### out of her?

Here's the difference.

Every time Janeway would run afoul of the Borg, she would try to hide and they would ignore her, which made her feel a little bit castrated. The Borg always knew where Voyager was, and they did not care. I don't think Janeway knew this. Idiot.

Every time the Kazon would attack, no matter how clever and damaging to Voyager that was, by the final accounting however, Janeway was always victorious & she'd staple a new ball to her under carriage. Defeating the Kazons incessant puny attempts at routing her mission, made Kathryn's lady business look like a muppaphone, and she liked it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

She didn't betray him. When security risks are involved she doesn't have to consult him in this instance. and in an AQ world, she could get back up. She said what she meant "We needed a good show." Her voice conveyed the regret of having to go there. It was risky too and could be seen badly. It was to you and Chakotay saw it as mistrust too.

I'm not implying it was a great idea. I just see her point of view.

I don't see her point of view and find it disgraceful. She preaches loyalty and talks trust and throws the person she SHOULD have trusted under the bus. Her acting conveyed she's a cold hearted bitch, and the writing should have taken that opportunity in future episodes to show signs of apprehension between the two.

It's a politically correct show, written by writers who'd NEVER served in the military, and have no CLUE what military protocol has to be in a situation like that. Here's a hint: THE CO AND EX HAS TO TALK WITHIN CLOSED DOORS, check out "The Pegasus" between Picard and Riker and the first 3 season of Ds9 with Sisko and Kira. The classic series with Kirk and Spock.

This was another episode that puts a black mark on Janeway and her hypocritical code of ethics. Sisko gained his black mark in the farse episode "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT". This kind of writing was amateurish at best.

 

[Lynx]

I like "Investigatioms" and I think it's a good episode.

But I agree that there are some flaws in the writing and I agree that Chakotay was ill-treated.

I could never understand why Chakotay wasn't informed about what was going on. After two years, they still treat him as a suspect.

Unfortunately, Voyager was dragged down by serious flaws and bad writing from the beginning to the end. Even some of the most brilliant episodes had certain flaws.

 

[hux]

This was another episode that puts a black mark on Janeway and her hypocritical code of ethics. Sisko gained his black mark in the farse episode "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT". This kind of writing was amateurish at best.

To be fair to Sisko, he's wrestles with the morality of the decision and even records his thoughts (before deleting them) because he knows he's crossing a line and it's tormenting him

Janeway on the other hand....."she can justify pretty much anything and always be right"

I like the way at the end of equinox she tells Chakotay he had good reason to stage a mutiny. She uses the word mutiny cos she still thinks she was in the right. Not...you had a good reason to relieve me of duty....no, no....a mutiny

 

[Lance]

She didn't betray him. When security risks are involved she doesn't have to consult him in this instance. and in an AQ world, she could get back up. She said what she meant "We needed a good show." Her voice conveyed the regret of having to go there. It was risky too and could be seen badly. It was to you and Chakotay saw it as mistrust too.

I'm not implying it was a great idea. I just see her point of view.

Absolutely. This is something which is very compelling about the Voyager situation: Janeway often has to take extra responsibilities on board that she'd never have to in the Alpha Quadrant. Also her first officer isn't (technically) Starfleet, so when it comes to things of this nature, she can't exactly confide in him like she maybe could with a 'real' XO.

That the traitor did indeed turn out to be one of Chakotay's own would seem to bear out the logic of keeping the number of people who knew about this to a minimum.

When police are investigating other police for corruption, they seldom arrest them and start asking questions; no, they send someone in undercover to gather evidence on them first. Sometimes it's necessary to keep people out of the loop.

 

[Mareika]

She didn't betray him. When security risks are involved she doesn't have to consult him in this instance. and in an AQ world, she could get back up. She said what she meant "We needed a good show." Her voice conveyed the regret of having to go there. It was risky too and could be seen badly. It was to you and Chakotay saw it as mistrust too.

I'm not implying it was a great idea. I just see her point of view.

I don't see her point of view and find it disgraceful. She preaches loyalty and talks trust and throws the person she SHOULD have trusted under the bus. Her acting conveyed she's a cold hearted bitch, and the writing should have taken that opportunity in future episodes to show signs of apprehension between the two.

Agree. All that talk of trust and loyality- and than she makes a fool of him in front of the whole crew. It`s her first officer and she already knows him for two years! Well, but if she really didn`t trust him and made those desisions- why didn`t she stand up after discovering the spy and apologise in front of the crew? I can`t understand Chakotay. I never could serve under her command after this happening the same way.
(Sorry, English isn`t my native language)

 

[Guy Gardener]

"If Laura Roslin is a Cylon, we're all frakked."

Chakotay in charge of the night shift, releases the sihips neurozine gas counter measures while transporter suppressing the 90 of so crew he didn't want to try and turn to his side.

220 Investigations. D-Day.

219 LIfe Signs. Sell the crew out to the Vidiians.

218 Deathwish. Seize command of the ship. Murdering Janeway seems like a good idea. Then accept Q's deal to go home in exchange for Quinn. Pick up Seska on the way home.

217. Dreadnaught. On eggshells. But after the day is saved, when Janeway is getting the key to the planet and half the crew is on Shore leave, that's when he takes Voyager and hooks up with Seska.

216. Meld. The security Chief was insane and the Captain was by his bedside. This would have been the perfect point to assert himself.

215. Threshold. The Captain was kidnapped and gone. Never to return. Club the Vulcan in the back of his kid and then it's just a matter of outwitting Kim.

214. Alliances. This is where Janeway decided to ally herself with Seska and become gal pals again. Paint each others toe nails and shit. If the Trabe hadn't been such dicks, Janeway and Seska would have been equal parters. And once they told the Trabe to bugger off, there was absolutely no reason why Janeway couldn't have honoured her arrangement with the other persons trying to make a new Federation in the Delta Quadrant.

...

UM.

Which episodes did this arc surface... Well Rapjael Sbarge is credited with being in 5 of of the 7 stories above. This is why Q is a ####. He knew that Jonas was working against Janeway, and he knew that Paris was pretending to be a #### to Chakotay yet he let it all play out... And Rapjael was not in Meld either. Seriously! When Lon Suder killed that guy, they must have thought "Victory is mine! We found the traitor sending gossip back to Seska." But I suppose Tuvok ransacking his brain put the kibosh on that thinking.

If Jonas sent the Kazon all the technical information Voyager had about Transwarp... And they got it working, then the Kazon could have easily been waiting in Earth orbit for Janeway in Endgame to blast her good.

"Sigh"

They thought he was a shitty actor. That's it. No grand conspiracy.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Janeway, Tuvok and Tom played Chakotay like he was a drooling retard and he should be offended. The Reason Tuvok gives makes it even more isnulting. So what? because a Maquis may be involved that makes Chak. in the loop a security risk? After something like that the normal reaction for Chakotay would be to hate Tuvok's guts... and Janeway's.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

...
How many Two year olds would be needed to beat you up?

10? 40? 2000?
...

Even a million wouldn't do it. They don't have the organizational skills to act collectively, not to mention the loathing and hatred that only come with experience.

 

[Catarina]

So what you're saying is why couldn't she trust him to put on a good show? And even if she praised him for coping it was still wrong? valid points. I am not disagreeing. Just to reiterate that.
I think Chakotay could put on a good show and she should have tried. He's Chakotay, not Robert Beltran. Maybe he's a better actor ;-)

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

So what you're saying is why couldn't she trust him to put on a good show? And even if she praised him for coping it was still wrong? valid points. I am not disagreeing. Just to reiterate that.
I think Chakotay could put on a good show and she should have tried. He's Chakotay, not Robert Beltran. Maybe he's a better actor ;-)

That would be quite a paradox if a character was a better actor than the actor that plays him...