Into Darkness DS9 references (SPOILERS)

[DS9forever]

I'd love to hear Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore give their opinions on Section 31 being in the movie - its the biggest DS9 reference since the Defiant was in First Contact.

 

[Tosk]

^Section 31 featured quite prominently in Enterprise too.

 

[DS9forever]

Sorry, I should have specified that I meant in the films; I suppose the Dominion was mentioned in Insurrection and the Dominion War in Nemesis, but they were more allusions than anything.

 

[Tosk]

Gotcha.

 

[toughlittleship]

Section 31 in the film isn't quite the same as it was in DS9 - it seemed to be more of a militia than a black ops organization.

 

[Yorkshire Niner]

I would have been so much happier with the film if John Harrison had just been a kick-ass S31 operative with access to loads of classified technology, rather than what they turned him into (I actually groaned in displeasure in the cinema when the reveal was made).

Totally agree. As soon as Section 31 was mentioned (by that racist terrorist guy from ENT, weirdly enough!) I was so jazzed. "Fantastic!" I thought, "Abrams has made a Section 31 movie! At last!" That positivity and optimism carried right on upto the moment when John Harrison did his big identity reveal (after having the Enterprise's hairdresser sort him out in the ship's brig) and all my hopes for a genuinely creative and thought-provoking movie crumbled faster than Abrams' Vulcan.

For the record, I would argue that the existence of Section 31 is part of what makes (proper) Trek great - the shades of grey. Odo summed it up better than I could - in a universe where the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order exist, it is illogical to assume that the UFP wouldn't have something equally shady and nefarious.

 

[Yorkshire Niner]

Here's a DS9 reference that probably doesn't really exist...I'm reeeeeally stretching on this:

Spoiler: ...

I couldn't help but think of Jadzia's "He had the hands of a surgeon" line when McCoy talked about Carol and his hands.

I just thought "Oh you're borrowing from The Undiscovered Country too now, are you? Fascinating".

 

[DarKush]

I was surprised not so much at the mention of Section 31, but at the admiral talking about it quite as openly as he did. Perhaps he didn't think it was a problem because he didn't intend Kirk and Spock to come back from their mission, but still, if Section 31 is supposed to be the ultra-secretest of secret organizations, you don't just blurt out that they exist where anyone can overhear you. It makes me think the writers tossed it in so we'd be happy with a DS9 reference without really understanding what it is that makes Section 31 what it is.

BTW, are we supposed to assume that the admiral was actually a member of Section 31 himself? He mostly came off as your average Insane Admiral TM, but actively trying to start a war because you believe it's inevitable but you've got genetically engineered supermen on your side so you'll win anyway does kind of sound like a S31 thing. And the secret base and secret starship with its non-official Starfleet uniforms also fits.

.

I was surprised by this to, that the Admiral was so forthcoming about the existence of Section 31. Though when you think about it, even DS9 and Enterprise sort of established that Section 31 hides in plan sight. That being said, on DS9 you got the impression that even the mention of Section 31 was a risky act.

Someone in one of the Into Darkness threads suggested that the destruction of Vulcan had scared or hardened Starfleet/Federation enough to bring Section 31 more into the light and I can accept that. I mean they could argue that the destruction of Vulcan proved that they were right and were necessary to deal with other threats. (Though personally I think the film undercuts this by making the adversaries the admiral is gravely concerned over very weak).

I had a feeling Section 31 would be in the movie after reading the Countdown to Darkness prequel. The story there gave me that kind of feeling and the aftermath made me real suspicious. As for the film itself, the admiral's plan did sort of fit in line with some of the crazy plans we've seen on DS9 and ENT. And I also got a vibe from the Section 31/DS9 novel "Abyss" with Harrison.

 

[DarKush]

I would have been so much happier with the film if John Harrison had just been a kick-ass S31 operative with access to loads of classified technology, rather than what they turned him into (I actually groaned in displeasure in the cinema when the reveal was made).

I totally agree. Because when the big moment came I think the film started going off the rails for me. It was like the writers just couldn't contain the inner fanboys inside them and just had to go there. Perhaps not because they thought they could do it better but maybe just to put their own spin on it or to write a character they probably grew up wanting to play with.

But that was totally unnecessary really for the story they were telling. Harrison was compelling enough. His motivation didn't even have to change. And if Harrison had been left alone I don't think the film would've veered (maybe) into a weak imitation of superior works.

 

[dub]

I've only seen it once, and I know it's not the right time period for it, and it may be wishful thinking but...

Spoiler: spoiler tag just in case

did I see Scotty riding in a runabout when he first found the admiral's ship?

Looked like it to me, but I'm sure someone here would know for sure.

 

[od0_ital]

^

That's just how the shuttles look in nuTrek.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Totally agree. As soon as Section 31 was mentioned (by that racist terrorist guy from ENT, weirdly enough!) I was so jazzed. "Fantastic!" I thought, "Abrams has made a Section 31 movie! At last!" That positivity and optimism carried right on upto the moment when John Harrison did his big identity reveal (after having the Enterprise's hairdresser sort him out in the ship's brig) and all my hopes for a genuinely creative and thought-provoking movie crumbled faster than Abrams' Vulcan.

For the record, I would argue that the existence of Section 31 is part of what makes (proper) Trek great - the shades of grey. Odo summed it up better than I could - in a universe where the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order exist, it is illogical to assume that the UFP wouldn't have something equally shady and nefarious.

I totally agree. Because when the big moment came I think the film started going off the rails for me. It was like the writers just couldn't contain the inner fanboys inside them and just had to go there. Perhaps not because they thought they could do it better but maybe just to put their own spin on it or to write a character they probably grew up wanting to play with.

But that was totally unnecessary really for the story they were telling. Harrison was compelling enough. His motivation didn't even have to change. And if Harrison had been left alone I don't think the film would've veered (maybe) into a weak imitation of superior works.

I'm not a huge S31 fan, but like Yorkshire Niner it added a great shade of grey to the Federation, that they will do what is needed to ensure their security. But a S31 spy-thriller would have been so much better.

From Harrison's reveal the film went down hill, then when they were just repeating the script from TWOK it plummetted.

 

[DarKush]

I am a fan of Section 31. I like the shades of gray aspect a lot. I don't think Section 31 has always been depicted as the most competent organization though, and Into Darkness at least keeps that part going.

 

[NightJim]

BTW, are we supposed to assume that the admiral was actually a member of Section 31 himself? He mostly came off as your average Insane Admiral TM, but actively trying to start a war because you believe it's inevitable but you've got genetically engineered supermen on your side so you'll win anyway does kind of sound like a S31 thing. And the secret base and secret starship with its non-official Starfleet uniforms also fits.

I got the impression that post-Vulcan he'd turned some areas of Section 31 into his own little fiefdom to prepare for the oncoming war, since they shared the same goals, roughly.


I'd argue that ID is still a Section 31 film, but a S31 film shared with 'John Harrison'. Lets be honest, Kirk's trapped between the Machinations of the two, and it's only because its the Enterprise that neither win.

 

[bullethead]

I am a fan of Section 31. I like the shades of gray aspect a lot. I don't think Section 31 has always been depicted as the most competent organization though, and Into Darkness at least keeps that part going.

Well, if you just stick to DS9, Section 31 is pretty competent. Their only failure happens when Bashir and O'Brien capture Sloan and enter his mind to get the cure to the Changeling virus.

 

[Yorkshire Niner]

From Harrison's reveal the film went down hill, then when they were just repeating the script from TWOK it plummetted.

Totally agree. I don't know if that TWOK scene was an attempt by Bad Robot's script monkeys to 'throw a bone' to us traditional Trekkies but I just felt insulted by it.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I literally laughed out loud in the theater the first time i saw it.

 

[starburst]

Section 31 in the film isn't quite the same as it was in DS9 - it seemed to be more of a militia than a black ops organization.

They seemed more like a special research branch tasked with developing experimental prototypes, long range stealth torpedoes and portable Transwarp Transporter devices to name 2.

If I had to have an explanation for the change, what ever the reason be it the destruction of the Kelvin or Vulcan, S31 became more 'public' at least within Starfleet in a way that the secretive SAS became public knowledge. The public face is probably just the beginning with the R&D.

Hide in plain site and all, better to have a cover for some of their goings on plus some of what they come up with can be fielded to improve the general fleet.

 

[dub]

From Harrison's reveal the film went down hill, then when they were just repeating the script from TWOK it plummetted.

Totally agree. I don't know if that TWOK scene was an attempt by Bad Robot's script monkeys to 'throw a bone' to us traditional Trekkies but I just felt insulted by it.

So it's not just me then. I thought I was the only one who felt that way. I couldn't stop face-palming in the theater. It's too bad, too, because for the most part I loved the first half of the film. But toward the end they went totally overboard with their version of a "Valentine to Trek fans." I don't mind throwing a quote in here and there, but there was way too much in the last half of the film. I just couldn't recover any positive feelings after

Spoiler: spoiler

Spock yelled "Khan!" I was already in face-palm mode at that point, but the yell just took me past the point of no return.

 

[Yorkshire Niner]

From Harrison's reveal the film went down hill, then when they were just repeating the script from TWOK it plummetted.

Totally agree. I don't know if that TWOK scene was an attempt by Bad Robot's script monkeys to 'throw a bone' to us traditional Trekkies but I just felt insulted by it.

So it's not just me then. I thought I was the only one who felt that way. I couldn't stop face-palming in the theater. It's too bad, too, because for the most part I loved the first half of the film. But toward the end they went totally overboard with their version of a "Valentine to Trek fans." I don't mind throwing a quote in here and there, but there was way too much in the last half of the film. I just couldn't recover any positive feelings after

Spoiler: spoiler

Spock yelled "Khan!" I was already in face-palm mode at that point, but the yell just took me past the point of no return.

After all Jar Jar's efforts to build a new timeline so that he and his script-bots weren't beholding to any of that nasty continuity nonsense (that was sarcasm, by the way), lifting an entire scene from a 30 year old (superior) film smacked of nothing less than plagiarism.