Interaction of Warp Drive with the Rest of the Universe

[sojourner]

OK, this train of thought came to me a while ago and I was reminded of it while reading the "weaponized warp" thread.

How does a ship in warp interact with the rest of the universe?

For example: a warp drive imparts no inertia on a ship insomuch that it is bending subspace to "move" the ship.

What happens if say a ship moving at warp 2 intercepts with say a shuttle at a standstill? Theoretically, the minute the shuttle enters the ships warp bubble, shouldn't it suddenly be dragged along at warp speed seeing as both the shuttle and the ship had the same inertia? I.E. there should be no reason for the shuttle to move out of the field once it is under the effects of said field?

What happens if you run the impulse engines at max while at warp? Since you are now gaining inertial speed and non-inertial speed, how do they interact? would the impulse engine add to overall speed as you are now moving the ship through normal space as well as warp?

Given that warp imparts no inertia, wouldn't it be dangerous to warp in close to a planet and being suddenly subjected to the gravitational pull. The danger being having enough time to build the required inertia using impulse to maintain orbit before crashing into a planet? (i guess the crux of the argument here would be how quickly would something fall to the surface if it just appeared at say 500km altitude with no momentum.)

The collision question: two ships go head on at warp 2. Since they have no inertia, the minute they penetrate warp fields what happens? do the ships collide with any force? Would both ships come to a stop (warpspeed wise) like rams locked in a headbut? Would the 2 warp bubbles, being diametrically opposed, get disrupted and drop both ships to normal space?

What happens when a ship collides with something too big to fit in the warpbubble, say an asteroid? how does it interact with the piece of asteroid penetrating the field as compared to the bulk of the asteroid outside the field?

I am sure there are other scenarios of how warp would have strange interactions, but I can't think of anymore of them at the moment.

 

[BlastHardcheese]

I thought about your questions and then my brain went pop.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Sojourner,

Well with the impulse engines, I was thinking that after a point they'd be useless.

The bubble would pull you forward in the front and push you forward in the back. If you blasted the impulse exhaust back it would eventually get the push from the rear part of the field. It would either compress into a heavier element and produce more energy, thrust etc. But there's the risk that in the process, eventually it might produce enough back-pressure to damage the impulse engines.

Also, it might have some interaction with the warp-field, but I doubt that.


CuttingEdge100

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner,

Well with the impulse engines, I was thinking that after a point they'd be useless.

The bubble would pull you forward in the front and push you forward in the back. If you blasted the impulse exhaust back it would eventually get the push from the rear part of the field. It would either compress into a heavier element and produce more energy, thrust etc. But there's the risk that in the process, eventually it might produce enough back-pressure to damage the impulse engines.

Also, it might have some interaction with the warp-field, but I doubt that.


CuttingEdge100

This assumes that a warp field is a barrier that lets nothing out. I was under the impression that things could move freely in and out of the warpfield. This would eliminate any worries about back pressure so to speak.

 

[T'Girl]

What happens if say a ship moving at warp 2 intercepts with say a shuttle at a standstill?

What happens if you run the impulse engines at max while at warp?

The collision question: two ships go head on at warp 2.

Things can enter a warp field from outside, that's why there's a main (and aux.) deflector. Your shuttle, if a ship was about to 'run over it', would most likely be moved to the side by the deflector.

Running he impulse engine would do one of two things. If they're just 'rocket engines' then the electrical power generated by their MHD's could be added to the output of the warp core. If they were some kind of field propulsion then they could suppliment the warp field directly.

A photon torpedo fired in warp at a warp speed target must itself have a warp drive ... and I lost my thought.

 

[sojourner]

Things can enter a warp field from outside, that's why there's a main (and aux.) deflector. Your shuttle, if a ship was about to 'run over it', would most likely be moved to the side by the deflector.

true enough, but you are sidestepping the intent of my question. I am interested in the interaction between newtonian and warp space.

Running he impulse engine would do one of two things. If they're just 'rocket engines' then the electrical power generated by their MHD's could be added to the output of the warp core. If they were some kind of field propulsion then they could suppliment the warp field directly.

For the purpose of this conversation, assume impulse engines are newtonian and produce thrust/impart momentum. I am not talking about secondary benefits such as power generation.

 

[T'Girl]

true enough, but you are sidestepping the intent of my question. I am interested in the interaction between newtonian and warp space.

For the purpose of this conversation, assume impulse engines are newtonian and produce thrust/impart momentum. I am not talking about secondary benefits such as power generation.

Okay sweetness let me try again. From the perspective of a ship traveling at warp six, anything sublight is basically standing still. The object would enter the warp field, impact the ship at hundreds of times the speed of light, even a small peeble would explode against the hull with enough force to insteadly destroy the ship. If the warp field could inpart zero momentum apon the peeble, the deflector would be necessary.

It would be like running a car in a closed garage. The warp bubble is centered on the nacelles so the ship wouldn't move inside the bubble. Any energy or heat would radiate out, 'exhaust' might build up in the bubble.

 

[Cid Highwind]

Yeah, but the question actually is: if object A is at standstill (0 momentum) in its warp bubble, and object B is at standstill outside of the warp bubble, from where does it gain the momentum upon entering the warp bubble?

In fact, can an object even enter the warp bubble? If there's a zone of non-moving spacetime (the universe), and a zone of moving spacetime within (the warp bubble), what really happens at the border between those two zones? It seems logical that there is no interaction between those two, at all.

Think of the universe as a tub of water, and the warp bubble as a bucket filled with water that is halfway drowned in the tub. If you move the bucket around, the water within will be at local standstill, the water surrounding it will (turbulences aside) be at standstill, but there will be no interaction between the two bodies of water.

Hitting some object floating in the tub with the bucket will just move it around the bucket. After the bucket has passed, the object will be at the same position as before.

 

[aridas sofia]

Yeah, but the question actually is: if object A is at standstill (0 momentum) in its warp bubble, and object B is at standstill outside of the warp bubble, from where does it gain the momentum upon entering the warp bubble?

In fact, can an object even enter the warp bubble? If there's a zone of non-moving spacetime (the universe), and a zone of moving spacetime within (the warp bubble), what really happens at the border between those two zones? It seems logical that there is no interaction between those two, at all.

Think of the universe as a tub of water, and the warp bubble as a bucket filled with water that is halfway drowned in the tub. If you move the bucket around, the water within will be at local standstill, the water surrounding it will (turbulences aside) be at standstill, but there will be no interaction between the two bodies of water.

Hitting some object floating in the tub with the bucket will just move it around the bucket. After the bucket has passed, the object will be at the same position as before.

I absolutely agree with this interpretation, and think the deflector is for use at sublight and only sublight. And only conventional sublight, not when any mass-reducing exotic drives are in play. Any manipulation of gravity -- and certainly such a huge manipulation necessary to produce a substantial bend in the fabric of the universe -- would also bend the path of everything contained in the universe. Because in the end, what is in the universe is the universe. If a star can bend light so significantly that we can be on the opposite side and see what the star is physically blocking, and if light (energy) and mass are equivalent, then any source of gravity will bend space and the path of objects in space will follow that curvature.

 

[sojourner]

true enough, but you are sidestepping the intent of my question. I am interested in the interaction between newtonian and warp space.

For the purpose of this conversation, assume impulse engines are newtonian and produce thrust/impart momentum. I am not talking about secondary benefits such as power generation.

Okay sweetness let me try again. From the perspective of a ship traveling at warp six, anything sublight is basically standing still. The object would enter the warp field, impact the ship at hundreds of times the speed of light, even a small peeble would explode against the hull with enough force to insteadly destroy the ship. If the warp field could inpart zero momentum apon the peeble, the deflector would be necessary.

It would be like running a car in a closed garage. The warp bubble is centered on the nacelles so the ship wouldn't move inside the bubble. Any energy or heat would radiate out, 'exhaust' might build up in the bubble.

Yea, no, that's not right. The ship wold not impact at 100's the speed of light because IT is not moving at that speed. The warp bubble is. See the analogy of the tub and bucket a few posts up^.

So far we are saying that warp bubbles prevent interaction from without? That makes most of my hypotheticals moot.
Is this definition of the warp bubble supported on screen? I am drawing a blank as to whether we have seen anything that does not support this method. (we can ignore the passage of light in and out of the field as a conceit of it being a tv show that needs pretty views of the ship and not just black spots flying through space)

 

[Shawnster]

Apparently there is some danger involved in a ship at warp impacting something not moving at warp. In ST:TMP the Enterprise engines go into imbalance and they had difficulty getting the ship out of warp. During this time an errant asteroid crossed the Enterprise's path, forcing them to destroy the asteroid to avoid a collision.

A soliton wave traveling at warp speeds proved to be a danger to the planet Lemma II in TNG's "New Ground". No indication of the exact mechanics of the danger but the end result was going to be the destruction of the planet.

 

[Ronald Held]

A nonsatisfying answer, is that if warp drive obeys GR equations, you have to solve for the dynamic effects of all of the relevent bodies.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think it depends on how you think warp drive works in the first place and onscreen Trek has been kinda vague (and perhaps rightfully so) on the issue.

For all intents and purposes, how warp drive works could vary from one episode to the next.

IMO, though, it could be that firing the impulse engines while a ship is at warp may increase your velocity by nearly a single cochrane--perhaps up to +0.9c of whatever your current warp factor is--which might be considered marginal to some, but everything counts in small amounts...

 

[aridas sofia]

Apparently there is some danger involved in a ship at warp impacting something not moving at warp. In ST:TMP the Enterprise engines go into imbalance and they had difficulty getting the ship out of warp. During this time an errant asteroid crossed the Enterprise's path, forcing them to destroy the asteroid to avoid a collision.

A soliton wave traveling at warp speeds proved to be a danger to the planet Lemma II in TNG's "New Ground". No indication of the exact mechanics of the danger but the end result was going to be the destruction of the planet.

That's not quite what happened. The imbalance caused a wormhole, and the asteroid was pulled into the wormhole along with the ship. A wormhole isn't that different from the kind of space warp created by the ship -- the ship is not cut off entirely from the rest of the universe. There would be a small opening forward and aft connecting the bubble to the universe around it. Remember, it is a warped part of our universe, not an entirely separate universe. But in the case of the wormhole those openings connecting to the rest of the universe must have been unstable or bigger or somehow incompatible with the ship traveling at warp.

 

[Myasishchev]

OK, this train of thought came to me a while ago and I was reminded of it while reading the "weaponized warp" thread.

How does a ship in warp interact with the rest of the universe?

For example: a warp drive imparts no inertia on a ship insomuch that it is bending subspace to "move" the ship.

What happens if say a ship moving at warp 2 intercepts with say a shuttle at a standstill? Theoretically, the minute the shuttle enters the ships warp bubble, shouldn't it suddenly be dragged along at warp speed seeing as both the shuttle and the ship had the same inertia? I.E. there should be no reason for the shuttle to move out of the field once it is under the effects of said field?

What happens if you run the impulse engines at max while at warp? Since you are now gaining inertial speed and non-inertial speed, how do they interact? would the impulse engine add to overall speed as you are now moving the ship through normal space as well as warp?

Given that warp imparts no inertia, wouldn't it be dangerous to warp in close to a planet and being suddenly subjected to the gravitational pull. The danger being having enough time to build the required inertia using impulse to maintain orbit before crashing into a planet? (i guess the crux of the argument here would be how quickly would something fall to the surface if it just appeared at say 500km altitude with no momentum.)

The collision question: two ships go head on at warp 2. Since they have no inertia, the minute they penetrate warp fields what happens? do the ships collide with any force? Would both ships come to a stop (warpspeed wise) like rams locked in a headbut? Would the 2 warp bubbles, being diametrically opposed, get disrupted and drop both ships to normal space?

What happens when a ship collides with something too big to fit in the warpbubble, say an asteroid? how does it interact with the piece of asteroid penetrating the field as compared to the bulk of the asteroid outside the field?

I am sure there are other scenarios of how warp would have strange interactions, but I can't think of anymore of them at the moment.

Basically, I figure the space inside and outside the bubble is adequately described in Newtonian terms, but at the boundary, the field is forcing the space inside the bubble to displace the space outside, at a speed faster than light.

Thus, I would assume that any object entering the warped space (and if warp is gravitational, it might be accelerated like falling into a natural gravity well) would simply maintain its own velocity subject only to the influence of the warp field's gravity. If it impacted, the resulting release of energy would be totally subject to Newtonian physics.

Like I said in the blueshift thread, the alternative is trying to figure out what kind of kinetic energy an object has at FTL speeds--a fool's errand if there ever was one. Sure, you can change c from 1 to any number you like, but then you have to explain where the thousandfold multiplication of mass/energy came from, since it obviously wasn't there before.