Insurrection

[JarodRussell]

I don't agree that "good people" would want to help the Baku. The Baku showed every sign of being selfish, self-absorbed, and closed-minded.

I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.

I wouldn't want anyone removed from their homes, harmed or killed to cure my cancer, no. I know it's tempting, but it's wrong.

 

[BillJ]

But it wouldn't just cure your cancer. It would cure cancer for millions. Is moving six hundred people such a bad thing for such a wide ranging benefit?

Would I have handled the relocation differently? Absolutely. Would I have relocated the Ba'ku to benefit billions? Absolutely.

 

[Bishop76]

That's always been one of my biggest problems with the film. The "bad guys" are actually kind of in the right. It's ridiculous to pass up an opportunity to improve upon the quality of life for billions. They just went about it in the dumbest way possible. Also, they went about it in a way that completely goes against the character of Starfleet. They've moved/removed people before and were pretty much straightforward about it. Why change that now?

 

[T'Girl]

That's always been one of my biggest problems with the film. The "bad guys" are actually kind of in the right.

I consider this to be one of the movie's strengths.

The evil "ugly" people are the ones who will improve the lives of billions, and the good "pretty" people are the ones who'll prevent this.

They tried to kill Data ...

Not even the people inside the Federation universally consider Data to be a person. So not exactly "kill."

This is where it falls apart for me. Who in the hell is dumb enough to hide a spaceship with transporters in a fucking lake?

It was shown later in the movie to possess transporters, why not maintain it in orbit?

 

[sonak]

I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.

I wouldn't want anyone removed from their homes, harmed or killed to cure my cancer, no. I know it's tempting, but it's wrong.

That's a personal choice for you, but if you really put "removal of a village from their homes" as a concern above "curing cancer for billions" then there's really no point in continuing this argument because your ethics are so different from mine that I don't really know how to bridge the gap.

 

[Jeyl]

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?

 

[R. Star]

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?

Yeah if the Baku really were as righteous and walked on water as the movie flatly attempts to portray them they would have just said, we'll move and let you use the planet's radiation to save those billions of lives. As it is they consider their immortality more important than billions of others.... and these are the people we're supposed to sympathize with?

 

[los2188]

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?

I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.

 

[BillJ]

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?

I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.

But there's no way billions of people benefit from the radiation if they actually have to travel to the Briar Patch. And the effects wear off after you leave.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.

Do you mean in the Federation, where they can already regrow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and extend the life of humans to two centuries?

 

[Jeyl]

But there's no way billions of people benefit from the radiation if they actually have to travel to the Briar Patch. And the effects wear off after you leave.

BillJ is right. Gathering the special properties from the ring was not intended to recreate the rejuvenation effect 100% like it is on the planet, but to help advance current medical treatments. The admiral himself said that with this research, medical science can double life spans, not make people immortal.

This is important for many reasons.

• The Sona's condition as depicted in the film gets worse over time with the Admiral stating that most won't survive for even a decade. If this discovery can double the life span of mere humans, imagine what it could do for the Sona's condition.
  
• Probably the biggest issue that's only vaguely mentioned is that the Federation is at WAR. A war in which very bright individuals were convinced we were actually going to lose. If the Federation had this medical expertise that can increase someone's life span, I'd say you have a bargaining chip to get more systems onto your side.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Sona's condition as depicted in the film gets worse over time with the Admiral stating that most won't survive for even a decade. If this discovery can double the life span of mere humans, imagine what it could do for the Sona's condition.

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.



Maybe to clarify things... do you think the metaphasic reaction collector thing at the end was supposed to be repeatable? My understanding is that it was a one time process, and then they would have bottled the collected particles and sold them, and then it would have been over, the entire planet rendered lifeless, and they would have had to harvest other places.

 

[los2188]

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?

I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.

But there's no way billions of people benefit from the radiation if they actually have to travel to the Briar Patch. And the effects wear off after you leave.

Ah ha...good point. I stand corrected.

 

[JarodRussell]

I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.

But there's no way billions of people benefit from the radiation if they actually have to travel to the Briar Patch. And the effects wear off after you leave.

Ah ha...good point. I stand corrected.

Which means the relocation would have killed all of the old Ba'ku, wouldn't it?

 

[Jeyl]

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall green pus like toxins being the result of old age.

 

[JarodRussell]

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall green pus like toxins being the result of old age.

That was the result of them obsessively trying to extend their lifespan. Plastic surgery, medication, genetic manipulation, they tried everything. Their bodies were producing toxins because they were living rotting corpses. They also made themselves infertile during the process, which was the irony. Instead of fighting the fact that they would die some day like everyone else, they should have gotten themselves a few kids. But they were jealous and tried to be just like their parents, and almost destroyed themselves with that.

I also think the Ba'ku got older and would eventually die some day, because there was a certain visible age range/diversity amongst the adults as well. All they had was more time, but they weren't actually immortal.

 

[The Overlord]

The Sona's condition as depicted in the film gets worse over time with the Admiral stating that most won't survive for even a decade. If this discovery can double the life span of mere humans, imagine what it could do for the Sona's condition.

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.



Maybe to clarify things... do you think the metaphasic reaction collector thing at the end was supposed to be repeatable? My understanding is that it was a one time process, and then they would have bottled the collected particles and sold them, and then it would have been over, the entire planet rendered lifeless, and they would have had to harvest other places.

So its wrong for the Son'a to try and remove the Ba'ku from that planet, but its okay for the Ba'ku to remove the Son'a from the planet? How does that work?

 

[JarodRussell]

The Sona's condition as depicted in the film gets worse over time with the Admiral stating that most won't survive for even a decade. If this discovery can double the life span of mere humans, imagine what it could do for the Sona's condition.

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.



Maybe to clarify things... do you think the metaphasic reaction collector thing at the end was supposed to be repeatable? My understanding is that it was a one time process, and then they would have bottled the collected particles and sold them, and then it would have been over, the entire planet rendered lifeless, and they would have had to harvest other places.

So its wrong for the Son'a to try and remove the Ba'ku from that planet, but its okay for the Ba'ku to remove the Son'a from the planet? How does that work?

But. The Ba'Ku. Didn't. Remove. The Son'a. From. The. Planet.

The Ba'ku exiled them from their village, that was all. Then the Son'a left the planet because they didn't want to live in the Briar Patch. That one is explicitly stated in the film.

 

[The Overlord]

Well, hm. The "condition" they have... they die of old age, like every fucking living thing in the entire universe.



Maybe to clarify things... do you think the metaphasic reaction collector thing at the end was supposed to be repeatable? My understanding is that it was a one time process, and then they would have bottled the collected particles and sold them, and then it would have been over, the entire planet rendered lifeless, and they would have had to harvest other places.

So its wrong for the Son'a to try and remove the Ba'ku from that planet, but its okay for the Ba'ku to remove the Son'a from the planet? How does that work?

But. The Ba'Ku. Didn't. Remove. The Son'a. From. The. Planet.

The Ba'ku exiled them from their village, that was all. Then the Son'a left the planet because they didn't want to live in the Briar Patch.

Well if that's true, the Son'a could have just made a new village somewhere else on the planet. If they had the means to travel through space, surely they had the means to start a new town somewhere else on the planet, even a couple of miles away from that village.

Seriously now you have just pointed out a huge plot hole in the movie. If you are right, the Son'a's grudge against the Ba'ku makes no sense and robs them of anything that made them compelling as villains. At this point, I think the Son'a would have worked better if they were just greedy aliens who had nothing to do Ba'ku and revenge wasn't part of their motive.

Where the film did they say the Son'a were just exiled from the village and not the entire planet? Also how can a group of pacifists with no tech have defeated their more violence prone neighbors who were interested in technological development? This makes no sense.

 

[Jeyl]

The Ba'ku exiled them from their village, that was all. Then the Son'a left the planet because they didn't want to live in the Briar Patch. That one is explicitly stated in the film.

Colony Jarod, he said Colony. If it was just the village, why does Ru'afo make the case of being exiled to die slowly? If leaving the planet was his choice, why didn't anyone bring that point up? Even Picard says "The children have returned to expel their elders. Just as they were once expelled."