Insurrection

[los2188]

There's something about Insurrection that I've always kind of wondered about. The Ba'ku weren't indigenous to that planet, but obviously they benefited from the "fountain of youth" on that planet. If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others? I mean they are a population of 600. They wouldn't even take up a fourth of the planet. Why not have their small area, and open up maybe 50% of the other side of the planet where the sick can come for help for medical reasons?

 

[EyalM]

Do we actually know that they didn't want others on their planet?
There is a reference to the Sona being too ill to benefit from the planet naturally, which is why they needed to harvest the rings. That implies that the option of settling somewhere else on the planet at least came up.
And then there's the Quark deleted scene where Picard decides for everyone else that there will be no SPAs there. What a jerk.

 

[Sandoval]

There's something about Insurrection that I've always kind of wondered about. The Ba'ku weren't indigenous to that planet, but obviously they benefited from the "fountain of youth" on that planet. If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others? I mean they are a population of 600. They wouldn't even take up a fourth of the planet. Why not have their small area, and open up maybe 50% of the other side of the planet where the sick can come for help for medical reasons?

They were selfish.

 

[SchwEnt]

I agree. What the hell kind of people are they?

Six hundred people claiming a whole planet for themselves. If it was solely to maintain their agrarian hippie commune, that'd be one thing. They want everyone to stay out of their backyard just because.

But to deny incredible medical benefits to the galaxy for the sake of upsetting their lifestyle is selfish. What total scumbag dicks!

 

[Sandoval]

I agree. What the hell kind of people are they?

Complete bastards.

 

[R. Star]

For being the people we're supposed to sympathize with in the film, they really were self-entitled jerks.

They spout nonsensical phrases that imply moral superiority where none exists, they exile anyone who disagrees with them, which is basically a death sentence given the immortality, they don't even entertain the notion of moving to help billions of people with the medical science, and as much as they believe in pacifism, they're hypocritical in having no objections to having lackeys fight on their behalf.

Even when Aniij just pompously flops down in the boat, you figure she just may as well spout out, "row slaves." Then at the send when the "good" Sona return home, well too bad they're still gonna die like it was said earlier. Yeah to an immortal race a couple years of putting up with their exiled relatives isn't too bad since they're gonna die anyways. They get to live in hippy utopia, the Federation doesn't get the medical technology which could save billions during the middle of a destructive war, and the Federation have actively made an enemy during that said war. But Picard gets to shag the Baku chick, so it's a happy ending.

 

[SchwEnt]

Right on. Screw the Baku, those scumbags.

And then making it worse, Picard and crew are the ones defending these jerks.

 

[bigdaddy]

How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?

 

[Sandoval]

How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?

Mystical powers obviously.

 

[los2188]

How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?

I'm talking about the Ba'ku actively letting people (not that they could actually stop people from coming) settle on the planet. People requesting from the Ba'ku to be able to live there with their knowledge, but wanting to let the Ba'ku still do their thing and just settling on another side of the planet or something. They should have listened to Spock. Apparently, the needs of the many did not outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There's something about Insurrection that I've always kind of wondered about. The Ba'ku weren't indigenous to that planet, but obviously they benefited from the "fountain of youth" on that planet. If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others? I mean they are a population of 600. They wouldn't even take up a fourth of the planet. Why not have their small area, and open up maybe 50% of the other side of the planet where the sick can come for help for medical reasons?

They were selfish.

Wait they were asked at some point?

When did this happen in the film?

All I remember is the typical corrupt admiral who is always the bad guy in these situations doing the typical corrupt admiral bad guy things, such as hiding what he plans to do and his allies shooting Data for finding out about it, then trying to get Picard to kill Data to keep him quiet, and planning to kidnap the natives and never let them know what was going on.

 

[BillJ]

The whole movie makes no sense.

Why even bring an unknown element (Data) on a top secret mission like this? Why did you need people on the ground doing scans when sensors have been shown to give incredible accuracy from orbit? Why hide a spaceship with transporters and a cloak in a lake?

Dougherty deserved to die for his sheer incompetence and Picard should've been drummed out of the service for continuously disobeying orders.

One of the dumbest fucking movies I've ever seen. They had an interesting concept but fucked it up just about every way imaginable.

 

[jayrath]

It's a retread of "Who Watches the Watchers," or whatever the TNG title was. Pretty loopy on TV, but still better done there. 'Nough said.

 

[sonak]

this gets brought up a lot. The movie fails because the "central dilemma" is stupid and the Baku are selfish and unsympathetic. Therefore there are no stakes to care about with them.


"but, but... 600 selfish non-native space hippies might get inconvenienced!"


yeah, great narrative hook, there.


Oh, and the lame, juvenile humor doesn't help the movie either.

 

[Melakon]

Oh, and the lame, juvenile humor doesn't help the movie either.

"And have you noticed how your boobs have started to firm up?"

What was Michael Piller thinking? Or drinking? Maybe that line was Rick Berman's contribution.

 

[T'Girl]

If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others?

Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

They were selfish.

Very much so.

Wait they were asked at some point?

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

When did this happen in the film?

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

All I remember is the typical corrupt admiral who ...

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

the bad guy in these situations

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

planning to kidnap the natives and never let them know what was going on.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

 

[sonak]

If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others?

Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

They were selfish.

Very much so.

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

the bad guy in these situations

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

planning to kidnap the natives and never let them know what was going on.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

that was awesome.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If the Ba'ku were so...enlightened and nice, for lack of better words, why wouldn't they just share the planet with others for the purpose of helping others?

Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

Very much so.

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

planning to kidnap the natives and never let them know what was going on.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

that was awesome.

Its actually bulls@#t.

Diplomacy doesn't work that way unless your Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, The British Empire, or any other imperialist asshole.

You don't just march into an area and kick people out of it because you want it. And frankly I find it ironic Star Trek fans want the Federation to act like their enemies, while acting like this is morally superior.

 

[sonak]

Or better still, abandon the planet so the particles could be collected and distributed across Sona and Federation space. That way people wouldn't have to travel to the ring planet, the rings would travel to them.

Very much so.

Anij: "There's an unusual metaphasic radiation coming from the planet's rings. It continuously regenerates our genetic structure."

Why would it be necessary to ask them, they knew exactly what the rings did. When Picard explain what the Federation and the Sona planned, the Baku should have immediately said: "The particles will help hundreds of billions of people, as they helped us? How soon can you beam us up?

But they didn't ... selfish assholes.

Picard's meeting with Anij occurred about one third of the way through the movie.

Who was following the instructions of the Federation Council.

Who were doing their jobs of looking after the best interests of the hundreds of billions of people in the 150 member Federation, and not just looking at 600 people living in one valley, on one Federation planet.

Really the Baku were the bad guys. Nice looking blonde hippie bad guys.

While the children seen in the movie were "natives," the adult Baku weren't. They were migrants.

Given that it was a Federation planet, nothing should have been kept secret, the Baku should have been simply evicted.

that was awesome.

Its actually bulls@#t.

Diplomacy doesn't work that way unless your Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, The British Empire, or any other imperialist asshole.

You don't just march into an area and kick people out of it because you want it. And frankly I find it ironic Star Trek fans want the Federation to act like their enemies, while acting like this is morally superior.

actually it works that way a lot. Resettlements happen all of the time. Borders change constantly. As a student of history, I find it amusing when people claim that there's something inviolable about land rights or land claims, when they actually shift all the time. And for much LESS good reasons than there were to do so here.


Heck, Picard was willing to do a forceable relocation in "journey's end" just for a peace treaty that wasn't likely to last. But he's not willing to do it here to give medical benefits to billions.(and I know the difference is that one group was officially citizens, but that's NOT the basis Picard used in that episode, he actually used "greater good" as the justification.)


Again, the Baku are not native to the planet, they are in UFP territory, and the Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku.

There really is no reason to argue against removing the Baku unless you hold to the absurd position that "finders keepers" is somehow an absolute principle and that property rights/land rights can't be violated even for a vastly greater good. In short, an absurd position.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

actually it works that way a lot. Resettlements happen all of the time. Borders change constantly.

How many involved kidnapping?

I also seem to recall in some cases the people doing so WERE KICKED OUT!

As a student of history, I find it amusing when people claim that there's something inviolable about land rights or land claims,

Well I guess sovereignty is a total crock then, so India should just go beg the British to come back and Poland and everywhere else the Nazis took over should just go crawling back to Germany.

Oh and I guess Africa should be just so grateful to Europe too

when they actually shift all the time. And for much LESS good reasons than there were to do so here.

Gee, that a good justification, less moral people did so you should do it too.

Heck, Picard was willing to do a forceable relocation in "journey's end" just for a peace treaty that wasn't likely to last. But he's not willing to do it here to give medical benefits to billions.(and I know the difference is that one group was officially citizens, but that's NOT the basis Picard used in that episode, he actually used "greater good" as the justification.)

So the MAJOR difference that makes the federation look like an imperialistic jackass should be ignored

Again, the Baku are not native to the planet, they are in UFP territory,

You mean the power that didn't even exist yet when the Baku moved there.

I guess the Baku should have checked with the Vulcan, Andorians, and Tellerites (who were probably busy shooting at each other), or the humans (who would probably put them on a show trial and then have their drugged soldiers gun them down or whatever the usual verdict in the setting Q was simulating in Encounter at Farpoint called for) before moving into an area that was outside of their spheres of influence back then.

and the Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku.

Which is between the Son'a and Baku, which is why crazy admiral guy called the whole thing off. Hell the federation didn't even know about that.

At first they just seemed to think they were teaming up with a thuggish empire they may or may not have been at war with to relocate a pre-warp culture so they can devastate the planet they were living on.

Not exactly what the good guys do in Star Trek is it, Especially what with the whole Prime Directive thing that tends to be designed TO PREVENT THAT!

There really is no reason to argue against removing the Baku unless you hold to the absurd position that "finders keepers" is somehow an absolute principle and that property rights/land rights can't be violated even for a vastly greater good. In short, an absurd position.

And yet if the government takes your stuff they kind of have to pay for it. And they also HAVE TO LET YOU KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT!

And no just finding out a foreign government whose first encounter with you is catching them pretty much spying on you then plans to kidnap you DOESN'T COUNT.

And no the federation probably wasn't going to share any of the particles with the Baku what with the way the kidnapping was presented and the whole restoring their natural course of evolution or whatever admiral wants to play god was going on about.

and no you don't get to ignore the point because it makes the side you support look bad.