"Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehicles?

[bryce]

ETA:I could REALLY use help from a mod or two cleaning this up. *PLEASE*! THANK YOU!!! SO MUCH!!!

(Please fee Mods to bump this to Trek Trek or Art is if fits better there...or maybe even the TNG or Movie discussion thread.)

A lot of the Insurrection used (bellow)- and concept - craft, look like they were previously repurchased Starfleet ships (mostly) rather than just rebuilding a special new ship just for the purpose...which would raise questions about budget allocations...

^This one that was actually used looks most like a re-purposed *cargo* vessel to me. (And that would be easiest for the evil admiral to requisition without too many questions being asked.

I mean, it's square, boxy shape to me suggests Starfleet or civilian cargo vessel. I could see *fleets* and convoys of automated cargo vessels likes this cruising in and around Federation space, doing the cargo and supply runs!)

Does that not just *scream* reused - and *automated* cargo ship!? With plenty of empty space inside for holo-emitters, and a holographic-recreated village!!!???

This image is HUGE and I don't know how to re-size it, so I will just post a linky: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...es/d/d2/Federation_Holoship_final_designs.jpg

^(Again, Mods - feel MORE THAN FREE to try to fix any of this...in fact, I'd consider it a HUGE favor!!! <3 ) I wish I could re-post this here but it's HUGE and I'm not sure how to re-size pic (but any mods feel free - *PLEASE*!!!_

Now the next one, the "boat" or "pregnant guppie" looking ship, to me looks like it could server a NUMBER of Starfleeet functions - and it probably does!!!

http://oi58.tinypic.com/5d47sj.jpg <- *ARRRRGH* Also can not re-size!!!! (can anyone teach me how!? THANKS!!!!)

But here is apparently an earlier concept for the same design (with less prominent nacelles) - but it's smaller so I can post it here. But you REALLY need to clink on the link before this one to see the final design = which I things looks much more passenger-ship-like:

My first thought was *Passenger*/tourist transport (with some light cargo capacity.) But also it could be refitted as a small Hospital ship...a science vessel.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=25p1iza&s=8#.U1GjCPldU3E
And the last one [^ABOVE] - WHICH IS ALSO TOO BIG AND I CAN'NOT RESIZE AND NEED HEP DOING SO *PLEASE* is the one I REALLY love, and would love to see a fan-render off (same for the "boat"/"guppie" ship) is the sauces ship. (The idea, I understand, was that this was supposed to be a saucer-shape, because a saucer would be easier to conform to and hide to outlines of the *round* Baku village, than say, the boxish square ship they went with.


The only issue I can see as a problem with using this as a Fleet ship in the raised bridge area (presumably so that small crew and Baku could remain separate - and this could have been a refit/retrofit to an already existing vehicle. But if it's not, with some changes, this would make a GREAT small Starfleet Patrol or even short-range Science vessel. And maybe a small frigate or defender. Must move the bridge down to the saucer - and where the bridge in now, all some sensors and/or a weapons pod!

(I *REALLY* do WANT to see a fan render of a version of this - but *totally* lack the skills myself. This kinda reminds me of a smaller Reliant/Miranda-type or a smaller Stargazer-type vessel!)

What do you all think? Ideas...????

 

[bryce]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Sorry for the mess with the pics (I haven't messed with posting and re-sizing pics in a while) - I am hoping a mod who isn't too busy might take the time to help straighten it all out - the images that is. (And I am so *very* SORRY that I called the Mods soulless minions off orthodoxy and mindless jerks who will be the first against the wall when the revolutions comes!"

BUT ANYWAY...I really would like people thoughts of this - PLEASE.

These ship designs - from the concept at - to especially the one finally used (even though it was talked about like a specially designed new ship in the movie) - really do look like modified and re-purposed hulls to me. Plus it make SO MUCH MORE *SENSE* - to jut have an admiral requisition and re-purpose and existing ship - then go through all the trouble (and potential exposure of their conspiracy) - than the hire a secured design time and building crew - and flight crew - not to mention finding a facility to build it at...than to just pic an existing vehicle/hull and have it re-purposed with little work or questions of effort.*

*(Of course, none of this applies to nuTrek Alternate Universe "logic"! )

PLUS - I think it's fun to speculate on what these ship/hull classes could have been used for. And I would *LOVE* to see fan-made renderings of these designs - or variations of - is anyone is up to it.

Frankly, I think that the unused round-shaped hull -- which is clearly an TNG-movie, "Sovereign" era design -- would make a HECK of a basis of a 24th century Stargazer-type ship design. (Thicken the saucer..and a second set of nacelles on the bottom...)

Anyone...??? ANY thoughts and ideas to ponder would be much appreciated!!!!

 

[Timo]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Let's remember that the Evil Admiral didn't have to operate in secrecy: he had the full backing of the UFP government on this. He could have been given the use of just about any starship out there, including the Enterprise. There was no "conspiracy", merely a lack of incentive to be exceedingly public about what was going on.

I mean, Admiral Dougherty told Data, Picard and supposedly everybody else about the "duck blind" observation mission quite openly. But the part of the plan where they abduct the Ba'ku and move them to a new home in a holoship would have to have been part and parcel of the moderately secret operation of securing the "fountain of youth" particles - and that operation was approved by the UFP government, even if it wasn't advertised to Picard from the get-go.

It would still make sense for Adm. Dougherty to requisition an existing transport simply because there'd be no real point in building a ship just for this purpose. Fitting of holodeck gear onto an existing ship seems like a trivial feat (the Voyager was transformed into a flying holo-circus in "The Killing Game" in demanding field conditions!) that calls for nothing special from the ship herself.

I'm not fond of the middle ship design, as it doesn't much resemble anything seen so far in Federation hands, but OTOH isn't generic enough to immediately scream "freighter!". The last of the third, the saucer-hulled concept, could well be a military transport, sacrificing the capacity of boxiness to the supposed survivability or speed of a starship-style design. Total lack of portholes in the main hull, coupled with the "conning tower" nature of the area that does have portholes, fits well with a transport identity, while the nicely exposed nacelles indicate power and speed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bryce]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

I think the middle ship is the boat-shaped "pregnant guppy" design, right?I know it's unusual for Starfleet...but I also get tired of the same old saucer/engineering/nacelles arrangement...and as an ugly utilitarian ship designed for max interior space for passengers, or troops, or medical personal, I think it works. (When you look at some of the current US Air Force and Navy designs...) Eh, and it's grown on me.

Definitely look at the linkys to the finalized concept design, and not just that for scratch sketch I posted (because it's all that fit) - if definitely looks more "Starfleet", IMHO, than the smaller pic.

http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/halo-1.jpg

Of course, I would LOVE to see the saucer-design *with* windows and hatches and a more traditionally placed bridge module. I think that the lack of windows and an accessible bridge (also exterior hatches cargo holds/bays, etc...were so that some wandering Baku teens wouldn't accidentally discover that they weren't on a starship and being moved... -- those changes could *still* be made to a hull already under construction - but also *very* easily* to a special purpose built ship. I would *still* very much like to see it - like the "Defiant Pathfinder" became the "Nova Class" - it's a good, solid, useful hull design - that could be converted - *very easily* - to multiple uses (and quickly.)

(But with windows and a proper bridge placement!)

http://johneaves.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/halo4.jpg
^It also looks the most -- "Starfleet" to me. Like something easily from the Enterprise-E era,

As for the "boxy but nice" Volvo of ship finally used - sure, it *could* be new, single-specific-purpose design....but to me the utilitarian shape *SCREAMS* re-purposed Federation & Starfleet cargo carrier.

Something that is usually not even crewed - but it does have a bridge crew-looking bump on top, so it may sometimes have a tiny "skeleton" crew (perhaps one small crew to over-see a small fleet of ships - with maybe one armed escort if ti's got a valuable cargo and/or is on the fringes of - or outside well-maintained, monitored and trafficked Federation traffic lanes...)

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100926043811/startrekprometheus/images/5/55/Holoship_aft.jpg

(And hence again, a good reason NOT to have a lot of windows - cargo doesn't need a good view....)

Yeah, sure, the Baku think wasn't *totally* secret - but they sure try hard to keep Riker from getting the word out. And to me, it just makes sense to use one of a *series* or already useful designs - than redesign something from the ground up.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb.../images/c/c5/Federation_holoship_interior.jpg

^From Memory Alpha" - see, would need *very little* re-conversion than the addition of a holo-grid!!!

(Just I just *like* the idea of a lot of these boxy "space cargo trucks" in use wide....)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Let's remember that the Evil Admiral didn't have to operate in secrecy: he had the full backing of the UFP government on this.

So he said. But I still find no reason to believe him.

 

[bryce]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Let's remember that the Evil Admiral didn't have to operate in secrecy: he had the full backing of the UFP government on this.

So he said. But I still find no reason to believe him.

Yeah, and he was willing to destroy a Federation ship full of Starflet Officers/Federation Citizens to keep Riker from leak the truth out to the Federation Counsel.

I think maybe to told the Federation Counsel *one* story (and he wanted Picard to believe that he had their full backing)...but in *REALITY*...he did NOT what the ACTUAL truth getting out!!!!

 

[Timo]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Of course, the movie is a bit confusing in that it contains so many layers of truth. Everybody is operating on false assumptions there - Picard more than anybody else when mounting his little insurrection.

I see no reason to doubt Dougherty's word that the UFP government approved of the clandestine observation of the primitive Ba'ku and their equally clandestine transplanting to another world so that the youth particles could be safely harvested. Dougherty himself appears to have believed that version of the story, too. But that was a lie on many levels - the Ba'ku were not primitives, the plan was not to move them but to make them suffer and die, and the particles were not to be harvested "safely", but merely in a way that ensured the Son'a would get all of it, right now, and nobody else would get any.

These were lies told by the Son'a to Dougherty and the Federation in order to fool the Feds into allowing the Son'a to operate on UFP territory. There is no further need for Dougherty to lie to the Federation, no motivation for him to side with the evil on an evil scheme - heck, he didn't even want to be rejuvenated himself!

At the very most, Dougherty would have learned that the Ba'ku were in fact advanced colonists from outer space, after having told the Council the exact opposite. But that would not have altered the fact that the UFP would already have been motivated to give him a holoship - nor would hiding the fact be much of a crime if the benevolent plan could still proceed.

Although of course it couldn't, because only primitives would be fooled by holotrickery! But this would be the point at which Dougherty would start lying to himself and thinking that things would work out all right despite small practical and ethical setbacks. And this sort of slippery slope would end in him authorizing the attack on the E-E, one small evil step by evil step; there would be no underlying motivation to do great evil, but rather a path of good intentions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

He lied to the Council, which is why he didn't want the Enterprise to be there, lied to Picard about "a few loose ends", and why they tried to kill Data (and later Picard) because he discovered the holoship. He was also ready to destroy the Enterprise to stop Riker from telling the Council the truth. And once Riker told the Council the truth, they immediately put the operation to an official stop. They didn't tell Riker to "tell Picard to fuck off because Picard's wrong". Picard was right, and the Council agreed with him.

If it was an official operation, why didn't Dougherty just tell Picard: "Dude, there are metaphasic particles, and we want to relocate the population to harvest the particles, and your Android is going crazy. Here's the Federation Council order xy12345. Stop the Android." He didn't because it wasn't an official operation!

How many clues do people need to recognize that Dougherty lied to the Council?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

This one that was actually used looks most like a re-purposed *cargo* vessel to me. (And that would be easiest for the evil admiral to requisition without too many questions being asked.

Given that the Admiral was act under orders from the Federation Council, he wouldn't have had to worry about "questions."

Just openly check one out from the motor pool.

 

[1001001]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic



If you put them on Photobucket, they re-size pretty well. Here's an example, which is big but manageable.

 

[Timo]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

He lied to the Council, which is why he didn't want the Enterprise to be there

No evidence of that. The heroes would have been told to stay away simply because there was no desire in the Council to advertise this search for eternal youth. Why should they be entitled to attend? Because they are heroes?

lied to Picard about "a few loose ends", and why they tried to kill Data (and later Picard) because he discovered the holoship.

There's no evidence Dougherty would have been involved in any way in the attempt to eliminate Picard/Data aboard the holoship, and he told no lies regarding that issue anyway.

And Data's predicament was all his own doing. His "ethical subroutine" kicked in and he started doing damage to the project; he had to be stopped, and there was no particular reason to tell anything further about the circumstances to the people tasked with stopping him.

He was also ready to destroy the Enterprise to stop Riker from telling the Council the truth.

But what truth? There were several - and the one thing Riker was going to reveal was that the Ba'ku were not native to the planet and would resist the deportation. This was new information, something the Son'a didn't want anybody to learn at any stage, and we have no indication Dougherty would have been aware of it, either. Picard stumbled on that information by chance, being present at the surface at a time when the Ba'ku found out about the spying mission, and witnessing their highly non-primitive reaction to it. Dougherty would not have had such a learning opportunity until Data went crazy.

What the Council (and the audience) eventually discovered was the ultimate truth of the matter: that the Ba'ku in fact were the Son'a, and it was all about a family feud. And that was only revealed to Dougherty after Picard relayed Crusher's findings to him.

And once Riker told the Council the truth, they immediately put the operation to an official stop. They didn't tell Riker to "tell Picard to fuck off because Picard's wrong". Picard was right, and the Council agreed with him.

Picard was wrong about most things, until he found out the truth. And that happened well into his little insurrection: the truth was revealed when Worf blasted those Son'a troopers down the cliff and Crusher got a tricorder reading on them.

The Council did exactly what Rua'fo believed it would do, it hesitated when things threatened to become public. Politicians got cold feet and put things on hold. From this we cannot deduce whether they had agreed on those things originally or not.

If it was an official operation, why didn't Dougherty just tell Picard: "Dude, there are metaphasic particles, and we want to relocate the population to harvest the particles, and your Android is going crazy. Here's the Federation Council order xy12345. Stop the Android." He didn't because it wasn't an official operation!

That's weak. He didn't tell because there was no need to - Picard was to stop the android and get the hell out of Dodge simply because he had no business interfering with the project. Picard wasn't entitled to knowing anything more.

When Picard overstepped his authority, Dougherty did do exactly what you describe. And Picard went rogue, and Rua'fo thought the Federation might panic, and thus panicked himself, and Dougherty panicked, too. Wouldn't you, when a project that is basically going to save the entire universe from death threatens to go down the drain because a starship captain chooses to ignore his orders and go criminal?

How many clues do people need to recognize that Dougherty lied to the Council?

I still don't see a single lie from Dougherty there - only levels of ignorance due to lies told by the Son'a to Dougherty and the UFP government. Again, I think you are being confused by the difference between what the good guys knew at the start of the movie, and what they knew towards its end; Dougherty does not appear to be too far ahead of the audience in the learning curve.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

What the Council (and the audience) eventually discovered was the ultimate truth of the matter: that the Ba'ku in fact were the Son'a, and it was all about a family feud. And that was only revealed to Dougherty after Picard relayed Crusher's findings to him.

Wrong. Riker didn't know about that, he left the planet before Crusher found out about it.

Dougherty lied by omission about several aspects. The warp capability of the Ba'ku and their non-nativeness (if that is a word), the effects of the metaphasic radiation, the existence of the holoship, the relocation plans, the attack on Data.

He did not want Picard to uncover the truth about why Data got attacked. Why the hell did he do that if the orders of the Federation Council were 100% okay? The answer is the orders were not 100% okay. The only reason why Data was attacked in the first place was because the operation wasn't legal. Otherwise there would have been no need to open fire at Data (Data malfunctioned AFTER being hit by a weapon). They would have just shown Data the Council order xy12345, and then Data would have complied. But they didn't do that because there was no proper Council order.

The holoship was an illegal operation HIDDEN from the official, sanctioned Duck Blind team. Data was part of that team, and he was not informed about the holoship and the relocation plans. He discovered that illegal operation and got shot at.

Seriously, it's so obvious and clear as day.

 

[Timo]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Wrong. Riker didn't know about that, he left the planet before Crusher found out about it.

Which is why I said "eventually". Until this truth was revealed, Dougherty still thought he was a good guy, and the Council still thought that the most they would need to do would be to put things on hold for a while and set up a committee. By the time the end credits rolled, everybody finally knew the Son'a had been bad guys all along.

The only reason why Data was attacked in the first place was because the operation wasn't legal. Otherwise there would have been no need to open fire at Data (Data malfunctioned AFTER being hit by a weapon). They would have just shown Data the Council order xy12345, and then Data would have complied. But they didn't do that because there was no proper Council order.

Naah. Data simply saw the plan, and disagreed with it - Council orders be damned. That was the point of his "ethics failsafe": that he would ignore orders and laws if he felt like it.

That some people wouldn't be okay with a government's plan is understandable. That doesn't mean they would be entitled to act on it, or that their protesting against it would be a good thing.

The holoship was an illegal operation HIDDEN from the official, sanctioned Duck Blind team.

The holoship might in theory have been unknown to the duck blind team, but that has no bearing on whether it would have been legal or not. There simply isn't any need-to-know argument that would entitle, say, Picard to know about this Project Fountain of Youth or, say, Spock to know about project Genesis.

Data was part of that team, and he was not informed about the holoship and the relocation plans. He discovered that illegal operation and got shot at.

More probably, he was part of that team and was informed about the ship, which is why his subroutine kicked in and he rebelled. In the ensuing firefight, he conveniently got hurt, so his madness would have a perfect explanation (at least initially) when the expert android exterminators from the Enterprise were called in.

Dougherty is never caught in an actual lie in this movie. Why would his statement that the operation is legal be a lie, then? It's far more likely that it's the truth, to his best knowledge. Just consider the alternative: an illegal operation mounted without the government's knowledge is allowed to proceed even when it involves secretly sailing an additional, secretly acquired starship into a restricted region of space! That's absurd, in comparison with the government knowing all about the operation, and providing said ship.

What would Dougherty win by lying? His "illegal" operation would culminate in there being bottled eternal youth for everybody, meaning full exposure of the operation. Is he simply counting on the courts being lenient with him thanks to his role in this galactic goodness?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Data's failsafe was engaged AFTER he got shot at!

PICARD
The Son'a reports claim they
didn't fire until after he malfunctioned.

LA FORGE
I don't believe it happened that
way.

PICARD
Why would they fire at him
without provocation?

LA FORGE
All I know is that he was
functioning normally until he was
shot. Then, his fail-safe system
was activated...

 

[Starscape]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

... And I would *LOVE* to see fan-made renderings of these designs - or variations of - is anyone is up to it.
...

I've always liked the two un-used holo-ship designs.

I guess it's not quite that you're asking for, but... several years ago I mashed up the "guppy" with a sovvie to get this (unfinished) model:



(Click to enlarge)

 

[varek]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Although a lot of different designs are possible, there are probably only a relative few that would work well or look good, which meet the 2-nacelle concept. So, the possible number of different designs, while large, is definitely finite.
Also, making the plasma flow turn corners on its way to the nacelles would require a tremendously strong magnetic field--if possible at all!--so the nacelles need to be behind the M/AM reaction chamber. This further limits the designs possible or practicable.
But, Starscape, I like your modified "guppy" design. To me, it looks like a shark.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

If it was an official operation, why didn't Dougherty just tell Picard ...

Because Picard was a subordinate?

He lied to the Council, which is why he didn't want the Enterprise to be there ...

Okay big question, if the Federation Council didn't send Dougherty to the planet to harvest the particles as part of a official mission in the first place, how did he get there?

He was also ready to destroy the Enterprise to stop Riker from telling the Council the truth.

I don't think Dougherty had any control over that.

Remember, when Dougherty wanted to communicate with Riker, Ruafo would not let him (the Admiral was on Roafo's ship). Later when Dougherty ask to be taken to the surface to talk directly with Picard Roafo refused.

It made no difference if Dougherty okay having Sona ship escort the Enterprise back, Roafo was going to send ship to destroy it anyway.

Dougherty wasn't in a position of control. No one was listening to him.

And once Riker told the Council the truth, they immediately put the operation to an official stop.

In Journey's End, when Admiral Nechayev requested a stop to the relocation mission, it took the Federation Council less than three day to review their original decision and to announced that there would be no changes.

Picard was right, and the Council agreed with him.

No, if they "agreed with him" they would have cancelled the entire operation out-right, instead they halted the Baku relocation while they they conducted a review.

How many clues do people need to recognize that Dougherty lied to the Council?

Your reasoning is less than clear. There no indication that Dougherty knew anything that the Council didn't.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

Wow, T'Girl ... that's a really thorough response! Very well thought out, indeed ...

 

[T'Girl]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

^ Muito obrigado Dois-toma-frakes.

 

[Nebusj]

Re: "Insurrection" Holoship designs - used and not - re-purposed vehic

What the Council (and the audience) eventually discovered was the ultimate truth of the matter: that the Ba'ku in fact were the Son'a, and it was all about a family feud. And that was only revealed to Dougherty after Picard relayed Crusher's findings to him.

You know, come to that, why do the Son'a hide the fact that the Ba'ku are the same people? That is, what do they gain from pretending the Ba'ku actually belong to the planet they've colonized?

If the Ba'ku are, as presented, a small primitive tribe living on their home world then the Federation gets all Prime Directive-y about it. But if the Ba'ku are just another faction of a space-capable civilization that the Federation has regular dealings with, then, relocating one of their colony worlds with the approval of their legitimate government (and the Son'a could easily present themselves as the legitimate government of the Ba'ku; after all, who's got the diplomats going back and forth to Earth?) is no more inherently objectionable to Federation eyes than any treaty-based territory revision.

In short, Insurrection is a sloppy mess of a movie.