In-Universe Explantion For the Change in Tone Between TMP and TWOK

[JD]

I always thought the TWOK era uniforms were cool looking, but I never really gave much thought to their practicality. They do seem a little elaborate for daily wear.

I've often wondered how comfortable and practical the DS9/TNG movie uniforms are with all of the different layers. With a tank top, a fairly thick shirt and the jacket it seems to me like that could get kind of hot, and pretty thick. Is the captain's vest usually worn under the jacket too or was that something captains could wear instead of jacket?

 

[Idran]

Alternative top, like the green wrap-around in the TOS era, I believe.

 

[Stevil2001]

There are definitely episodes ("Rocks and Shoals," I think) that show that the captain's vest is worn under his uniform top. (I mean, I assume Avery Brooks wasn't usually, but Sisko clearly is.) God knows why you would want to! Maybe it has a built in futuristic cooling system? He's wearing four layers! The only time I do that is a New England winter.

 

[Christopher]

And I'll note that by the Bozeman era, the TWOK-era uniform tunics were being worn without the turtlenecks (the equivalent of my not bothering with an undershirt, or of wearing a "gray undershirt" DS9/VOY uniform tunic without the gray undershirt).

It seems more like wearing a jacket without a shirt underneath. In fact, that's literally what it is. It would've made more sense to do it the other way -- the turtleneck without the jacket, as I suggested.

 

[Bibliomike]

I remember someone in the Best of Trek series (Kyle someone? Or maybe it was Tom Lalli? It's been so long...) suggesting that some terrible military cataclysm occurred in between TMP and TWOK, to account for TWOK's more militaristic tone and style.

I didn't and don't agree with his conclusion that it harmed Trek as a whole, but he argued his case well. It's certainly beyond debate that there's a tonal shift, very unlike anything seen in pre-TWOK Trek (try saying that tree times fast).

 

[Idran]

There are definitely episodes ("Rocks and Shoals," I think) that show that the captain's vest is worn under his uniform top. (I mean, I assume Avery Brooks wasn't usually, but Sisko clearly is.) God knows why you would want to! Maybe it has a built in futuristic cooling system? He's wearing four layers! The only time I do that is a New England winter.

Oh, really? Oh, I didn't remember that at all; haha, that is kind of crazy.

 

[Stevil2001]

My wife and I are doing a DS9 (re)watch right now, and for some reason, uniform variations have become one of the things we are into tracking, so it stood out to us!

 

[JD]

On this page of screencaps from Rocks and Shoals of you can see several pictures of Sisko with all four layers. I can't imagine how hot that must have been for Avery Brooks.
EDIT: Woops forgot to put in the link. Fixed it now.

 

[David cgc]

There are definitely episodes ("Rocks and Shoals," I think) that show that the captain's vest is worn under his uniform top. (I mean, I assume Avery Brooks wasn't usually, but Sisko clearly is.) God knows why you would want to! Maybe it has a built in futuristic cooling system? He's wearing four layers! The only time I do that is a New England winter.

You don't see it explicitly, but Generations heavily implies Kirk was wearing a TWOK-styled vest under his regular red jacket, as well. I'd always assumed he'd just imagined himself into the vest when the Nexus had him chopping firewood, but it turns out his regular jacket is laying on one of the wood piles nearby, suggesting he also went with the galaxy's most impractical three-piece suit. And they both have insignia pins on them, in the same place! That must be jabby.

 

[Stevil2001]

Maybe he just fantasizes he could wear it that way, and the Nexus allowed him to realize it.

Had we ever seen the TWOK-style vest before Generations?

 

[Ronald Held]

The Nexus will allow him to do that.

 

[Markonian]

We keep wondering how impractical the TWOK uniforms would be, but isn't our perspective too present-day?

That uniform is in use almost three hundred years from now - it could be made from all sorts of quasi-electronic and faux-spiderweb fibers that are resistant to discharges, force, fire, fluids and temperature. If these people travel faster than light, surely they aren't lying on wool anymore, Imho.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Had we ever seen the TWOK-style vest before Generations?

A slightly different style, but yes.

--Captain Terrell

 

[Stevil2001]

Oh yeah! Thanks. But that was probably for wearing under the field jacket, which makes more sense than all the other vests under discussion here.

ETA: Though no one else seems to be wearing one.

 

[Idran]

We keep wondering how impractical the TWOK uniforms would be, but isn't our perspective too present-day?

That uniform is in use almost three hundred years from now - it could be made from all sorts of quasi-electronic and faux-spiderweb fibers that are resistant to discharges, force, fire, fluids and temperature. If these people travel faster than light, surely they aren't lying on wool anymore, Imho.

But those advantages would apply to both an outfit with more layers and an outfit with less layers.

And besides, that logic is like saying "we've got people spending months in space, surely we're not lying on wool anymore" about the present day; one doesn't really have anything to do with the other. It's the same fallacy as the whole "we can put a man on the moon, but..." cliche.

 

[Avro Arrow]

t's the same fallacy as the whole "we can put a man on the moon, but..." cliche.

You have automatically triggered this obligatory xkcd link.

 

[Idran]

t's the same fallacy as the whole "we can put a man on the moon, but..." cliche.

You have automatically triggered this obligatory xkcd link.

It is appreciated.

 

[Markonian]

t's the same fallacy as the whole "we can put a man on the moon, but..." cliche.

You have automatically triggered this obligatory xkcd link.

You got me there, and I had not considered the layers-issue. Can we attribute it to the fashion sense of a distant future? The uniform may not have been designed for Humans specifically, but other Federation members who may appreciate more layers. Usually Humans find two layers of body wear most comfortable, but the material and cut might have make the TWOK uniform (and Sisko's vest) surprisingly delightful to wear.

I agree with the real world assessment that today such a uniform would be dress variant, but there's got to be a sensible in-universe explanation why this was the longest-lasting uniform style (that we know of) in Federation Starfleet history.

 

[Christopher]

Usually Humans find two layers of body wear most comfortable...

Depends on the culture. There are humans in tropical climes who spend most of their lives nearly naked. After all, we didn't evolve wearing clothes, so any kind of clothing preference is a learned cultural trait, not a universal property of the species.

 

[Markonian]

Usually Humans find two layers of body wear most comfortable...

Depends on the culture. There are humans in tropical climes who spend most of their lives nearly naked. After all, we didn't evolve wearing clothes, so any kind of clothing preference is a learned cultural trait, not a universal property of the species.

Sorry, I had forgotten about that. Fell into the ethnocentric trap again. So, two layers would be comfortable in the cold reaches of Europe, except the Mediterranean region.