• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

In-Universe Explantion For the Change in Tone Between TMP and TWOK

There is direct evidence in TWOK that relations with the Klingons aren't good: the Kobayashi Maru scenario itself, pitting a Starfleet captain against Klingon adversaries. In TMP, all we knew, or what we could readily surmise, was that the Federation was spying on the Klingons with stations such as Epsilon IX. TMP also gave us reason to believe that Klingon practice was to fire on intruders, at least those they couldn't identify that were within their territory. But in TWOK, we learn that Starfleet is training its cadets regarding battle specifically against the Klingons, just as they were when Kirk was a cadet, assuming Kirk's scenario was the same as Saavik's.

By Kobayashi Maru (the novel), though, we know that's a re-enactment of one of the incidents that precipitated the Romulan War, and those were remotely-controlled Klingon vessels held by Romulan forces using their telepresence system, luring in the NX-01 with a freighter in distress to try and capture it. (Granted, that's from out of the main universe, but we are in the Treklit forum. :p)
 
There is direct evidence in TWOK that relations with the Klingons aren't good: the Kobayashi Maru scenario itself, pitting a Starfleet captain against Klingon adversaries. In TMP, all we knew, or what we could readily surmise, was that the Federation was spying on the Klingons with stations such as Epsilon IX. TMP also gave us reason to believe that Klingon practice was to fire on intruders, at least those they couldn't identify that were within their territory. But in TWOK, we learn that Starfleet is training its cadets regarding battle specifically against the Klingons, just as they were when Kirk was a cadet, assuming Kirk's scenario was the same as Saavik's.

By Kobayashi Maru (the novel), though, we know that's a re-enactment of one of the incidents that precipitated the Romulan War, and those were remotely-controlled Klingon vessels held by Romulan forces using their telepresence system, luring in the NX-01 with a freighter in distress to try and capture it. (Granted, that's from out of the main universe, but we are in the Treklit forum. :p)
That's irrelevant to the point. We can infer that Starfleet didn't consider it out of the question for its trainees to face Klingon craft in battle, because they still trained them under the scenario, and with top Klingon ships of the line.
 
Yeah, but the scenario isn't really meant for battle training anyway. It's meant to get people on the command track used to the idea that sometimes every option is a bad one and there isn't a way to win. The identity of the combatants is kind of irrelevant, since there's no expectation for the cadets to win. There's not even any reason to think they programmed in legitimate Klingon tactics or accurate firepower for the ships involved, since it's supposed to be a setup such that it's not just unlikely to win, but there's literally no way to win.

Edit: Well, come to think of it, it would probably give up the game if they didn't. Still, though, the point of the simulation isn't to teach cadets how to fight Klingons either way; not even to get them used to fighting Klingons.
 
Yeah, but the scenario isn't really meant for battle training anyway. It's meant to get people on the command track used to the idea that sometimes every option is a bad one and there isn't a way to win. The identity of the combatants is kind of irrelevant, since there's no expectation for the cadets to win. There's not even any reason to think they programmed in legitimate Klingon tactics or accurate firepower for the ships involved, since it's supposed to be a setup such that it's not just unlikely to win, but there's literally no way to win.

I agree with what you are saying to a degree. I considered whether the identity of the combatants matters at all, and I decided that it did. If the combatants were, say, of a Federation member, you'd expect there to be protests in diplomatic channels, and pressure to get the simulation changed. I'd expect the Klingons to lob protests too, say of the kind levied by the mealy-mouthed Klingon ambassador from STIV:TVH. But he didn't get very far against the likes of Sarek. YMMV.
 
There is direct evidence in TWOK that relations with the Klingons aren't good: the Kobayashi Maru scenario itself, pitting a Starfleet captain against Klingon adversaries. In TMP, all we knew, or what we could readily surmise, was that the Federation was spying on the Klingons with stations such as Epsilon IX. TMP also gave us reason to believe that Klingon practice was to fire on intruders, at least those they couldn't identify that were within their territory. But in TWOK, we learn that Starfleet is training its cadets regarding battle specifically against the Klingons, just as they were when Kirk was a cadet, assuming Kirk's scenario was the same as Saavik's.

Absolutely. Even assuming that the academy that Kirk attended was more or less the same as what we see in TWOK, it's just possible that the curriculum itself is even more combat based by the time Saavik is sitting the test (if relations with the Klingons have soured that much, then it would make sense to emphasise worst case scenarios and battle situations).

Certainly despite the distrust and the open declarations of warfare in episodes like "Errand Of Mercy" and "Day of the Dove", I always felt that relations, while tense, were never completely unamicable in TOS (possibly due to the Organian treaty?), but from TWOK onwards it's implied strongly that the two powers are on the knife's edge of out-and-out war. It's a much, much different relationship.
 
Note, though, that by The Voyage Home, the Empire has Ambassador Kamarag stationed on Earth. It happens a lot in the novelverse, but still, we've never heard about any Ambassador of the Klingon Empire to the United Federation of Planets during the five-year mission.
 
To be fair, as far as I recall we never heard about any Ambassador of any foreign state to the United Federation of Planets during the five-year mission.

Edit: Oh, I suppose we can assume the Ambassador of Coridan during Journey to Babel, but that's a close case since it was about joining the Federation.
 
It happens a lot in the novelverse, but still, we've never heard about any Ambassador of the Klingon Empire to the United Federation of Planets during the five-year mission.

Implicitly, maybe we have. Early in "Errand of Mercy," they talked about negotiations with the Klingons breaking down. If negotiations were underway before then, there must've been diplomatic contact, and that suggests an exchange of ambassadors.
 
^That's always been my take. "The Trouble With Tribbles" was only about a year after "Errand of Mercy," so it's not surprising that both parties would abide by the treaty in order to avoid incurring the Organians' wrath.

According to the episode "A Private Little War", the Klingons had been supplying arms to Tyree's planet for a year before the episode. If you work the timeline back, that works out to either before or not long after "Errand of Mercy." So the Klingons certainly didn't waste much time before violating the Peace Treaty.
 
^That's always been my take. "The Trouble With Tribbles" was only about a year after "Errand of Mercy," so it's not surprising that both parties would abide by the treaty in order to avoid incurring the Organians' wrath.

According to the episode "A Private Little War", the Klingons had been supplying arms to for a year before the episode. If you work the timeline back, that works out to either before or not long after "Errand of Mercy." So the Klingons certainly didn't waste much time before violating the Peace Treaty.

That's assuming that what the Klingons did on Tyree's planet Neural was in violation of the Peace Treaty. Taking the treaty as a metaphor for the Cold War, proxy wars would be right in line with it.
 
According to the episode "A Private Little War", the Klingons had been supplying arms to Tyree's planet for a year before the episode. If you work the timeline back, that works out to either before or not long after "Errand of Mercy." So the Klingons certainly didn't waste much time before violating the Peace Treaty.

Not necessarily. It was Tyree who said it had begun a year ago, so he presumably meant Neuralese years, which could easily be significantly shorter (or longer) than Earth years.
 
Not necessarily. It was Tyree who said it had begun a year ago, so he presumably meant Neuralese years, which could easily be significantly shorter (or longer) than Earth years.

Yeah, but you can't work out a decent chronology for the show without assuming that "year" always refers to an Earth year. And since Star Trek is a TV show rather than a documentary about life in the 23rd Century, I choose to make the illogical assumption that the universal translator is always converting the units of time as well. :)
 
Whereas I find you can't make a decent chronology unless you discard the idea of "always." It's all too inconsistent to work it out without being flexible.
 
Yeah, but you can't work out a decent chronology for the show without assuming that "year" always refers to an Earth year. And since Star Trek is a TV show rather than a documentary about life in the 23rd Century, I choose to make the illogical assumption that the universal translator is always converting the units of time as well. :)

Whereas I find you can't make a decent chronology unless you discard the idea of "always." It's all too inconsistent to work it out without being flexible.
Actually, as someone with a bit of experience in putting together chronologies (as well as evaluating what works and what doesn't in the timelines of others), I'd say you really do need a methodology that's applied consistently across whatever fiction you're working to timeline.

Otherwise, I find that people start letting their own bias determine how to interpret possible contradictions, rather than applying an "always" sort of rule in such a way that leads you down a path you might not initially want but which turns out to be more consistent than your original set of assumptions. That way, you can make the hard choices about what to ignore completely as incompatible rather than bending over backwards and fudging your own take on things just to include every last little reference.
 
I may not have put together as many chronologies as you, TheAlmanac, but I've been working on my Trek chronology for decades, and I've found that the source material itself is so intrinsically inconsistent and self-contradictory that an inflexible approach is simply untenable. Of course it's helpful to follow some general rules, but as with everything else in life, it is a bad idea to treat any rule as absolute and inflexible. Rules are general guidelines, but every situation is different. So it should always be possible to bend when there's reason to.

Besides, "Everyone in the universe defines a year exactly the same way" is such a stupid notion on the face of it that I prefer not to assume it's true unless I'm compelled to by unambiguous evidence. A year is the time it takes a planet to complete one revolution around its primary star. Of course other planets around other stars are going to have years of differing lengths. Mercury's year is 88 days; Mars's year is almost two Earth years. And that's around the same star. Other stars have greater or lesser masses and temperatures, and the orbital distance and period for an Earthlike planet would thus be different. A planet with exactly Earthlike conditions around an F5 main sequence star might have an orbital period of about two Earth years, while a planet with Earthlike conditions around a K5 red dwarf might have a "year" of only 11 weeks.

So recognizing that alien worlds have different year lengths is not being sloppy; on the contrary, it's compensating for the sloppiness of TV writers who made the mistake of assuming that years are a universal absolute. It's trying to inject a bit more science and realism and using that knowledge to deal with some of the contradictions in the source material.
 
...I've been working on my Trek chronology for decades, and I've found that the source material itself is so intrinsically inconsistent and self-contradictory that an inflexible approach is simply untenable.
I'd say that Star Trek is something of a sui generis situation--but you were making a general point, so I was responding to that. :)

Star Trek is unique in the sheer amount of live-action (and other) material being used (except perhaps for Doctor Who, but its chronologists are generally putting together things from The Doctor's perspective, and a great deal of time travel changes everything). It also has a history of back-and-forth between fans making certain assumptions and TPTB asserting official interpretations of past material, even when those interpretations sometimes went against previously popular assumptions.

In this context, I was mostly recalling older stuff I've read (in The Best of Trek and the like) where I thought people looking at Star Trek (mostly TOS at the time) were themselves being sloppy. I remember one article where the writer took "century" to be +/- 50 years in some cases, +/- 75 years in others, and other lengths at other times, just because he wanted certain ranges to overlap. I was annoyed at seeing him start from the conclusion he wanted, rather than following the references where they would lead and just acknowledging the contradictions.

Besides, "Everyone in the universe defines a year exactly the same way" is such a stupid notion on the face of it that I prefer not to assume it's true unless I'm compelled to by unambiguous evidence. A year is the time it takes a planet to complete one revolution around its primary star. Of course other planets around other stars are going to have years of differing lengths. Mercury's year is 88 days; Mars's year is almost two Earth years. And that's around the same star. Other stars have greater or lesser masses and temperatures, and the orbital distance and period for an Earthlike planet would thus be different. A planet with exactly Earthlike conditions around an F5 main sequence star might have an orbital period of about two Earth years, while a planet with Earthlike conditions around a K5 red dwarf might have a "year" of only 11 weeks.

So recognizing that alien worlds have different year lengths is not being sloppy; on the contrary, it's compensating for the sloppiness of TV writers who made the mistake of assuming that years are a universal absolute. It's trying to inject a bit more science and realism and using that knowledge to deal with some of the contradictions in the source material.
Sometimes this might work, sometimes it definitely doesn't.

Firefly (as an example where I've had to make this argument to a bunch of other people) does not take place in our own solar system at all, and there is only one specific date mentioned in the entire series. It would be way more scientifically realistic to go with the idea that "year" means something different depending on who says it in the series--but it would also make constructing any sort of consistent timeline for the show absolutely impossible.
 
In this context, I was mostly recalling older stuff I've read (in The Best of Trek and the like) where I thought people looking at Star Trek (mostly TOS at the time) were themselves being sloppy. I remember one article where the writer took "century" to be +/- 50 years in some cases, +/- 75 years in others, and other lengths at other times, just because he wanted certain ranges to overlap. I was annoyed at seeing him start from the conclusion he wanted, rather than following the references where they would lead and just acknowledging the contradictions.

On the other hand, the opposite extreme can be just as bad. It was often quite silly of the Okudas' Star Trek Chronology to treat every spoken date as an exact figure rather than an estimate, even when it doesn't make sense. For instance, insisting that the Valiant must've been launched exactly 200 years before "Where No Man Has Gone Before," in 2064, only 3 years after the first prototype warp flight -- or, in the revised, post-FC edition, only 1 year after. There's no way in hell it makes sense for an expedition to the edge of the galaxy to be launched that early after the invention of warp drive. Good grief, at the low warp speeds available then, it would've taken more than 200 years even to reach the nearest face of the galactic disk. So that's a case where it would've made enormously more sense to assume that "200 years" was rounded up from, say, 180 or so years.


Sometimes this might work, sometimes it definitely doesn't.
Exactly my point. Nothing is "always," except that there are always exceptions to any rule. Even a rule that makes sense to apply most of the time makes no sense to apply inflexibly in absolutely every instance, even when it would be better not to.


Firefly (as an example where I've had to make this argument to a bunch of other people) does not take place in our own solar system at all, and there is only one specific date mentioned in the entire series. It would be way more scientifically realistic to go with the idea that "year" means something different depending on who says it in the series--but it would also make constructing any sort of consistent timeline for the show absolutely impossible.
Well, given that they're occupying dozens of worlds with differing orbits, it would actually make sense to adopt a standard timekeeping system that applies to everyone. An Earth year might well be adopted as a standard because it's independent of any given world in the system and reflects the heritage that all the settlers share. So in that context, it'd actually make a lot of sense for them to use Earth years.

It's different when you're dealing with a multispecies interstellar civilization, since the different species would've had millennia of independent existence to devise their own time standards based on their own worlds' orbits before they started interacting with other cultures. I mean, we're talking about "A Private Little War" here. Tyree has never heard of Earth, except maybe in vague terms from Kirk. The only possible way he'd be speaking in Earth years is if the universal translator is interpreting his local time references into Earth units for Kirk and McCoy's convenience. Which is certainly possible, and how I generally assume it works in my own Trek writing. But if it were preferable to assume that the Klingons only began providing weapons after "Errand of Mercy" -- which seems to be what Blood Will Tell suggests -- then we can easily resolve the discrepancy by assuming that Tyree was speaking of Neuralese years and that Neural is closer to its star and thus has a shorter year than Earth.
 
Besides, "Everyone in the universe defines a year exactly the same way" is such a stupid notion on the face of it that I prefer not to assume it's true unless I'm compelled to by unambiguous evidence.

Yeah, well, so is assuming that most aliens in the universe are humanoid bipeds who speak English, or something easily translated into English. You have to cut the show a little slack for these things. I just tend to assume that the universal translator is converting time units into years for our convenience.

On the other hand, the opposite extreme can be just as bad. It was often quite silly of the Okudas' Star Trek Chronology to treat every spoken date as an exact figure rather than an estimate, even when it doesn't make sense.

The thing that really bugged me was that they set TWOK 18 years after Space Seed, when two different characters state outright that it's been 15 years. Most of my other problems with the Okuda Chronology are that they let TNG assumptions & references supercede TOS ones.
 
The thing that really bugged me was that they set TWOK 18 years after Space Seed, when two different characters state outright that it's been 15 years.

That's always bewildered me. The best explanation I can think of is that they wanted to reconcile with TFF being more than 20 years after "Balance of Terror," so they had to put it in 2287 and had to fudge the dates of the previous three films to fit. But I don't see why they'd treat the 20-year figure as exact and the 15-year figure as approximate. It would've made more sense to go the other way, or at least to split the difference.



Most of my other problems with the Okuda Chronology are that they let TNG assumptions & references supercede TOS ones.

Well, since they worked on TNG, that's understandable. Also, it's just a general principle that newer information in an ongoing franchise supersedes older information -- which is why Vulcanian became Vulcan, UESPA became Starfleet, James R. Kirk became James T. Kirk, lithium became dilithium, etc. Any ongoing series is subject to ongoing refinement and self-correction, so the later interpretations generally should take precedence. (Unless it's an outright mistake, like "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" erroneously putting the Eugenics Wars 200 years before DS9, or like me getting a character's species name wrong in my second Hub story in Analog.)
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top