In the War, Did the Bop prove their worth

[Seth]

I'll be the first to admit it. I'd never understood why the Klingons were considered a powerful force (as they use old starships all the time)..

I hated the Bird of Prey (Bop) and all of its varaints. I was always yelling at the tv screen everytime I saw the fear in opposing starships whenever a BOP or an old battle cruiser decloaked in front of them. C'mon those ships are about 30 years behind in weapons and tech compared to the more advanced 24th century ships.

But after seeing the war arc of DS9 I'm a true believer. One should never underestimate the mighty Klingons. I felt that the Bop had proven themselves as one of the most feared and fearsome attack ships in the galaxy. They have outgunned and out maneuvered the Jem'hdar attack ships on more than one occassion.

Last night I was watching A Call to Arms and was jumping out my seat as Martok's BOP decloaked and fired its weapons at one of the Jem'hdar ships that was attaacking the Defiant. I had the same reaction in WYLB as a squad of bop went after a squad of Jem'hdar ships. The BOP's were knocking them out of the sky. As a result the Jem'hdar just started suicide runs at them.

I think they have done well... :thumbsup:

 

[Anwar]

They may look old because they haven't changed the basic design, but most definately they upgraded the weapons and engines and shields for the times in the TNG era.

It's just for some reason all that upgrading left the ships looking the same on the outside.

 

[drasche]

Because it was (technically) an excellent design from the start. And don't forget the BoP exist in various sizes, from 100 to 600 meters in length.

Depending on the story requirements of course

 

[Seth]

I forgot to mention In the movie (Generations) how one BOP was more than a match for the Fed flagship. I was LMAO when I saw a big ass Galaxy class ship trying to run from a lil bug like a BOp

 

[Praetor]

^Never underestimate the power of clumsy writing!

That said, the Klingons do seem to be a juggernaut of sorts... high in number but slow in technological development. If 'Enterprise' is to be taken literally (or taken into consideration at all) it seems that the Klingons had ships that at least looked exactly like the 23rd century D7s in the 2150s. On a similar note, I remember reading that the Vor'cha class cruisers were meant to suggest a collaboration between Federation and Klingon technology in the 24th century era of detente. Makes one wonder if their new battlecruiser would have had a D7 shape if that collaboration hadn't happened...

 

[Unicron]

Anwar said:
They may look old because they haven't changed the basic design, but most definately they upgraded the weapons and engines and shields for the times in the TNG era.

It's just for some reason all that upgrading left the ships looking the same on the outside.

Yeah, that's a key factor since it's logical to assume Trek ships have longer lifespans. In the BattleTech universe, there are many vehicle and ship designs that have remained in service for several centuries, with periodic upgrades and variants. Personally, I've always preferred how the FASA RPG handled the design over the canon versions.

 

[Seth]

Praetor said:
^Never underestimate the power of clumsy writing!

You got jokes.... Ok I was rushing I'm at work

 

[captcalhoun]

the Klingons using designs over 50 years old is no different to the USAF using the B-52 after all these years. they're obviously Bird-of-Prey L-models or something

 

[new_mercury]

In the Dominion war Starfleet are using Excelsior class and miranda class ships just as old as the BoP's!
(and the Galazxy class ships finally kick ass!)

 

[Who_Trek]

They're intimidating as hell, I'll give them that ...

 

[Vulcanian]

I thought they were kinda weak in TNG.

They were much cooler in the Dominion War.

 

[Ethros]

I love the last part of the battle in DS9: Sacrifice of Angels, with the Defiant and three BOPs
One accidentally shoots and destroys another, one clips its wing on a Jem-Hadar ship and goes smashing into the massive Battle Cruiser, and the last is caught in the explosion of said Cruiser
Those poor guys

 

[WalkinMan]

I think the Bird-of-Prey designs proved their worth in the Dominion War. However, keep in mind that the iconic BoP design has been given a bit of a Trek retcon, with the B'rel and K'vort class designs, due to vastly different interior portrayals; I believe one version is 4x the size but same general appearance, etc. Sort of like the 'mushroom' starbases in TNG vs. TOS films.

In GEN, though, it was laughable how they regarded the BoP as a genuine threat; when the Duras sisters appeared in TNG they weren't that menacing.

However in the Dominion War, the missions the BoP went on--infilitrating enemy space under cloak, providing rescues; destroying Dominion starbases, etc., were often quite heroic and impressive.

Being relatively small, they were harder to ram unlike the Vor'cha class ships. They also seemed to be able to take on multiple Jem'Hadar fighters, like the episode with Kor, and when paired with the Defiant.

Not to mention, after the Breen weapon was used, a single BoP was invulnerable to it; then for a while the entire Allied forces were being protected by BoPs.

Yes, I'd say the BoP proved its worth quite well in the Dominion War. I also think that iconic design will continue on, unlike the Miranda class (served well, but IMO that's the last time in a major engagement; back to Lantree-esque courier/freighter duty, and eventual retirement).

I'd also like to see 2 things, one being where the BoP first came out (imagine a late TOS TV-era predecessor), and a future successor, designed to the same general specifications but incorporating a more modern design, perhaps to complement the Negh'var class.

 

[Timo]

From what we have seen, we could think that the BoP is the only landing-capable starship of any significance in the Klingon fleet (and that the Intrepid class is the only such type in Starfleet). That's reason enough for some longevity: special types like that tend to linger because there is so little use for them "normally" (so there's little incentive to design and market them for the military) and so much during times of crisis (so once a design is created, it is built in disproportionately great numbers).

Certainly other starship types can operate within atmospheres - even Kirk's old ship did. But they probably are quite clumsy at it, and we've seen none land securely, let alone take off.

I see a vague analogy to the continued USMC use of the substandard LVTP-7 swimming APC even though the organization nowadays operates almost exclusively on dry land. It's their traditional tool of trade, the one thing they have in stock, and in some ways also the thing they have learned to use best.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

The reason the BOP was effective in the war was due to it's size and maneuverability.

Remember that Jem'Haddar ships were relatively small, and that SF mostly focused it's production towards multipurpose larger ships.

It wasn't until the Defiant was made (prompted by the Borg) that SF began to make smaller ships that packed much more firepower while still retaining their other capabilities as multi-role ships.

The BOP is apparently a 200 year old design.
The Klingons also are a race of warriors, so they need little to no use of making entirely new design unless absolutely necessary.

It wasn't until the introduction of the Borg when other larger powers began to churn out newer designs like the Federation.

The Feds are more exploratory, yet from what was established on screen supposed to be the most technologically advanced in comparison to other Alpha Quadrant powers like Klingons and Romulas (which also makes it plausible due to 150 different races working together towards a same goal and pulling various techs into the mix).

SF as a relatively young organization most likely wants to have a diverse fleet of ships, and are also making new starship classes to perform better in the field.

But they also lack behind in upgrading their older designs if on screen evidence is to be trusted.
The only older designs that received upgrades would be DS9 and the Lakota, other than that, forget it.
The Betazed defenses were outdated by almost a century at the time Dominion took it for themselves.

Anyway ... SF would be just as capable of upgrading the Miranda class to be comparable to an Intrepid class for example if they put their mind to it.
It's doable, yet depends on if it would be necessary to keep an old design for longer periods.

I would surmise that ships designed in the mid to late 24th century of the Feds would have the most likely probability of being used 200 years down the line (and if the alternate time-line 'The Battle of Procryon 5' from Enterprise is any indication, then at least we know the Prometheus could be used in 200 years).

But yes ... the BOP did prove it's worth in the DW.
The Klingons would most likely have to spend some more time devising a way to increase it's firepower if the design after 200 years is not too robust anymore, but it's a viable design.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Well...I'm glad you are discovering DS9, and in particular the treatment of the Klingons in DS9.

I loved the BoP's in the Dominion War battles. But IMO, it's not just the ships, but the Klingons themselves who rocked.

IMO, the best thing that DS9 did for the Klingon Empire was in the character of Martok. I can take or leave Worf...but Martok is one kick-ass good Klingon!

And it's nice to see his ship and ships under his command in battle. The great thing is that they are not just background ships filling up the screen in DS9 - they are ships you really care about.

I loved it when the Klingons arrived at the battle in Sacrifice of Angels. Just in time!

 

[Seth]

Agreed, It was also nice to see someone else charging to the rescue instead of star fleet.

If the War proved one thing he Feds and the Klingons make a great team. i do realize that this is aTV show but it still very odd that the starfleet has like 100 different classes of star ships and everyone else in the Quadrant has 3 or 4..

 

[captcalhoun]

well, just cuz we don't SEE them, doesn't mean they don't exist...

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Praetor said:
^Never underestimate the power of clumsy writing!

That said, the Klingons do seem to be a juggernaut of sorts... high in number but slow in technological development. If 'Enterprise' is to be taken literally (or taken into consideration at all) it seems that the Klingons had ships that at least looked exactly like the 23rd century D7s in the 2150s.

The story of why that Klingon design appears can be read here Vorok Battle Cruiser. Though you might know that already.

Anyway, Klingon Birds of Prey are kewl That's the most important thing about them and why they are used in every show and are commandeered by heroes and villains alike.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I love the Bird of Prey, just look at the havoc they've wrought in Federation space throughout the films and series and yet are only really classed as a scout!

Also, when Martok is declared chancellor he still keeps his trusty BOP rather than some Negh'Var style death machine.

Also look at the way the three K'Vort class BOPs handed the ED's arse to it on a plate in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'

There's an old saying - the old ones are the best.

I've seen a few eps of Enterprise and I'd agree with the poster above about their lack of forward progress, in fact they got the cloak from the Romulans and their Vor'Cha tech from the Feds - I'd go as far as saying the Klingons have probably stolen or been given most of their tech.