In The Pale Moonlight-Would you do it?

[WarsTrek1993]

Let's say for a moment that you're in either Sisko's or Garak's shoes and you're contemplating bringing someone to your side. And you have to resort to drastic measures to do so (hiring criminals, purchasing biological weapons, killing a key asset).

The question: could you bring yourself to make all of these devastating decisions as seen in ITPM, one of the most thought-provoking episodes of DS9?

Discuss.

 

[Brolan]

Yes. Saving the Federation is more important (in my mind) than the ideals of the Federation.

 

[WarsTrek1993]

Yeah, I can agree to that.

 

[DonIago]

I can't say. I've never been under the stresses that Sisko and Garak were operating under. I place high value on honesty and integrity, and the risks that they took (What if the Romulans had learned the truth?) were beyond anything I've personally dealt with. I can't see myself doing it, but I don't have an appropriate frame of reference. Hell, we still don't know what consequences their choices might have ultimately had, though I believe there've been stories that speculated that the Romulans ultimately learned the truth and it led to another war. Was Nemesis in part a consequence of their actions? ST '09?

That being said, if I knew I'd brought an entire nation into a war by lying to them, even if they were a "hostile" nation, even if I thought I did it for their own good...I'm not sure I'd be able to live with myself.

 

[WarsTrek1993]

I agree with most of that, except I don't view NEM (or the other TNG movies) as canon to the TV series, due to a few inconsistencies (but that's a topic for another thread).

While protecting the Federation is a #1 priority, it's definitely a hard choice to make, I can respect that. After all, Sisko and Garak were both playing with an open flame.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Yes. Saving the Federation is more important (in my mind) than the ideals of the Federation.

But what is the Federation without its ideals? Another Klingon or Romulan Empire. IMHO, there is no Federation without those ideals.

 

[Tiberius]

There's no Federation WITH those ideals if holding them lets the Dominion win the war.

 

[blackzoid]

Yes I would. But under the condition that I would have to turn myself over to the Romulan authorities after the war is over. And go public with what I did.

 

[indolover]

Yes, I would. Though it wasn't a true crisis IMO, since the Federation wasn't near defeat, I would have strongly contemplated it.

 

[E-DUB]

Unquestionably. Don't forget that the Dominion was prepared to eradicate Earth just because an anti-Dominion resistance might form there. And while Vreenak may have gotten a counterfeit rod detailing Dominion plans to attack Romulus, that doesn't mean that they weren't planning to do it anyway, either as payback for the Rom/Cardie strike on their homeworld or just on GP. Don't forget that they had a changeling infiltrator on one of those Romulan ships.

Ends/means arguements are always complicated but survival, that's pretty simple.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I just had a thought: if the Romulans ever DID find out what Sisko did, who's to say they would actually do anything? Romulans are very sneaky and devious, and they might appreciate those qualities in others. Their respect for Sisko might go up if he proved how 'Romulan' he could act...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I just had a thought: if the Romulans ever DID find out what Sisko did, who's to say they would actually do anything? Romulans are very sneaky and devious, and they might appreciate those qualities in others. Their respect for Sisko might go up if he proved how 'Romulan' he could act...

In one of the novels (Hollow Men) it's all but explicitly stated than some of the Tal Shiar have worked out what happened, at least in general terms, (or that they strongly suspect), and indeed their representative seems appreciative in her comments to Sisko. Interested, in a "I wonder how flexible you and the Federation truly are?" sort of way.

After all, manipulating public opinion for your own ends is an integral part of both politics and state intelligence.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Very true. Romulans might tend to gloat over how compromised Sisko was forced to become.

And IIRC, were any Romulan lives (other than Vreenak's) lost in this fracas? There may have been a suspicion in their society that the Dominion was going to attack them anyway, and so enough Romulan leaders didn't particularly care that the evidence was fake - they probably disagreed so strongly about the nonaggression treaty that they looked for any excuse to attack. So given that Sisko's actions didn't directly endanger Romulus itself, that may have been OK with them.

 

[Tom]

You can't put Garak in the same terms Sisko morally, Sisko is a Starfleet Captain and Garak is a Cardassian spy. To Garak, morally is was no big deal, to Sisko it was.

 

[Tom]

There's no Federation WITH those ideals if holding them lets the Dominion win the war.

This.

This is what alows for groups like Section 31 to exist. A government as big as the Federation can not exist without some questionable actions that help it survive.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Any legitimate intelligence activities that the Federation needs to carry out will be doable by Starfleet Intelligence. Whatever SI can't do - legally - should not, indeed MUST not, be done. And don't even try to tell me that the Federation can't survive without Section 31, because it can.

Think of it this way, does the Federation - or any other government - DESERVE to survive if it so thoroughly compromises its principles? Is it not better to die with your ideals than to live without them?

 

[Tom]

We are talking abaut a government, not an individual. This is why Section 31 is a shadow organization, so there is no accountabilty on the part of the Federation. I'm sure the Federation can live with out Section 31, but it helps make the Federation look good and noble by doing some dirty work hidden and denyable in the background. Show me a large government that is true and totally pure, it does not exist, no matter how good the propaganda may tell you otherwise.

It's not a matter if they deserve it or not, governments can have the best of intentions but often find that questionable actions needs to taken at times. Everything is a matter of stabilty and PR.

A non Section 31 example would be in the TNG episode 'The Pegasus', high ranking officials conspiring to develop a phasing cloak, that goes agaist there Romulan treaty. There will always be so questionable actions at the higher levels of government.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually I always assumed (retroactively) that Admiral Pressman *was* a Section 31 operative. It certainly fits their M.O.

 

[Tom]

Well TNG and DS9 have had it's share of bad or misguided Admirals thats for sure, Admiral Leyton from 'Paradise Lost' comes to mind also. Even TOS had some some bad or misguided captains and commodores. You would think that a government like the Federation would not have so many incidents with people in power doing the wrong things, it goes to prove that something is not right in the Federation to alow these individuls to get so corrupted.

...and it does not look like it gets any better since they promoted Janeway to Admiral..LOL

 

[TheGodBen]

This is a question I've been thinking about lately after playing Mass Effect 3. In that game, Earth is under attack by a powerful enemy and the only way to stop them is to build as many alliances with the other races as you can. At one point in the game, you have the option of making an additional alliance, but doing so involves shooting a friend in the back during a highly-charged scene, and you're only given a few seconds to make your choice. Most people chose not to do it. I did. What followed was one of the most painful experiences I've had while consuming any form of entertainment, it was so powerful that I had to walk away from the game for a bit and get some tea to calm me down. I felt like crap, the character may not have been real but I still felt like I had murdered him. In the end, I went through a situation similar to Sisko's where I decided I could live with it because it was the right strategic choice.

Now, video games aren't real life, if they were then my time playing Grand Theft Auto would make me the greatest serial killer in history, but that moment showed that I was more willing to carry out such an act than most. So I guess that the answer is that I may be willing to do what Sisko did, which is why I'll never allow myself to be in a position where I wield such power.