In The Pale Moonlight-Would you do it?

[Sindatur]

As Tom said, all Governments are going to do shady and unethical things, with or without legal authority.

Using a Section 31 type Organization, it allows you deniability, and the opportunity to be outraged and declare why things like that aren't acceptable.

Without a Section 31 Organization, you end up with laws being changed or twisted to legally allow Waterboarding, indefinite detention without trial, The President being able to declare someone a Terrorist and the ability to invade another Sovereign Nation with Predator Drones to execute that person, all without a Trial, or any oversight. Is it really better to allow it to be legally acceptable (And therefore likely to become more commonplace), or is it better to keep it on the down low in back rooms, and not alllow it to become Publicly Acceptable?

 

[BillJ]

Section 31, everyone's favorite boogeyman.

Of course I'd do it. Others may look unfavorably on my actions, but at least they'll continue to have the freedom to do so.

 

[DonIago]

It's interesting that some posters are speaking as if S31 had some level of unofficial Federation recognition, when I think it was pretty established that the whole problem with them was that they had no supervision and were little more than a cabal that decided on what they thought was best for the Federation and then took unilateral action.

 

[sonak]

of course you do it. Is this really a question? Any one who wouldn't shouldn't be in a position of command/responsibility in a time like that.


The freedom of the AQ (even the Romulans eventually) was at stake.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

Any legitimate intelligence activities that the Federation needs to carry out will be doable by Starfleet Intelligence. Whatever SI can't do - legally - should not, indeed MUST not, be done. And don't even try to tell me that the Federation can't survive without Section 31, because it can.

Ah, but S31 has been in existence since before the Federation, so there's no way to tell whether the Federation could have survived without it.

 

[sonak]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

not according to what he said in his log afterward. He said he could live with it, implying that he'd do it all over again if he had to.

 

[BillJ]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

I wouldn't be so sure. If he was convinced choking out Vreenak would bring in the Romulans on the Federation side, he'd choke him out with his own bare hands.

 

[Sindatur]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

not according to what he said in his log afterward. He said he could live with it, implying that he'd do it all over again if he had to.

Plus when Garak got in his face with "You know what I'm capable of, that I would do the things you couldn't, and that's why you brought me in", you could see by the look on Sisko's face, and the way he stopped railing at Garak that he accepted it to be true. So, yea, definitely capping it off with "I can live with it", he is admitting he'd do it all again

So, yea, he didn't have a specific plan to kill Vreenak, from the get-go, but, he most certainly knew by using Garak things might go down that he wouldn't/couldn't do himself, and he wouldn't hcange a thing if he had an opportunity to.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's interesting that some posters are speaking as if S31 had some level of unofficial Federation recognition, when I think it was pretty established that the whole problem with them was that they had no supervision and were little more than a cabal that decided on what they thought was best for the Federation and then took unilateral action.

That is exactly what Section 31 is. They can literally do whatever they want. They follow no laws or regulations, they have no accountability and no oversight. They have - had - an operative inside the Federation President's Cabinet. They would even assassinate the President (or anyone else they deem a threat) if they so chose. The Federation doesn't want Section 31 there, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation "recognizes" (i.e. advocates) S31's existence, but they exist anyway. Section 31 says they defend the Federation - but they really only defend *themselves*.

Show me a large government that is true and totally pure, it does not exist

We can dream.

A perfect government may not *actually* exist, but we should always strive - as best we can - to make ours so.

 

[Captain Atkin]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

not according to what he said in his log afterward. He said he could live with it, implying that he'd do it all over again if he had to.

Sisko: "So I will learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it."

Captain Sisko said that he could "live with it" twice; once to the camera, and the second time looking away. His body language and the repetition of his words suggests that he doesn't firmly believe what he is saying, but that he is trying to make himself believe it. Weather or not he could actually do it again, without some like Garek stepping in and doing most of the dirty work, is debatable.

 

[Sindatur]

The way it actually unfolded, Sisko never really made the decision to jump right into killing Vreenak. It was a slippery slope, where every small decision led to something worse. So even Sisko wouldn't have done it.

not according to what he said in his log afterward. He said he could live with it, implying that he'd do it all over again if he had to.

Sisko: "So I will learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it."

Captain Sisko said that he could "live with it" twice; once to the camera, and the second time looking away. His body language and the repetition of his words suggests that he doesn't firmly believe what he is saying, but that he is trying to make himself believe it. Weather or not he could actually do it again, without some like Garek stepping in and doing most of the dirty work, is debatable.

Yea, unlikely if he had it to do over again, that he would personally plant the bomb, or request it be planted. However, I do believe, if he had some kind of time travelling Orb experience or whatever that gave him the opportunity to change it, he wouldn't, he would let things play out exactly as they did.

 

[Max33]

No I wouldnt... Sisko wouldnt... You know for damn sure Picard wouldnt. ( Kirk would )

Knolodge of intent like that makes everything the Federation stands for, in the modern series, a lie.

Sisko was a real dissapointment in that moment, even though his only true crime was being a dupe... his willingness to fabricate evidence in order to draw a planet into a war was the act of a desperate man who abandoned his principals. Once you do that, theres truely never any going back. If he had any integrity at all he would have resigned his Starfleet commision " oh Kai-Winn you've been a self-centered and power hungery kai, the only absolution is to step down "

And what happens to everybody favorite, loveable scumbag Garrak ? Nothin... he just goes back to hemming pants... really? " You just tricked me into murdering another sentiant lifeform for our own political agenda, you Jerk!!! See ya in Quarks later on..."

Way to take a dump on whats supposed to be the guiding light of decency and hope in the galaxy... good job.

 

[USS KG5]

Let's say for a moment that you're in either Sisko's or Garak's shoes and you're contemplating bringing someone to your side. And you have to resort to drastic measures to do so (hiring criminals, purchasing biological weapons, killing a key asset).

The question: could you bring yourself to make all of these devastating decisions as seen in ITPM, one of the most thought-provoking episodes of DS9?

Discuss.

Absolutely yes - often leaders face not a choice between right and wrong, and more a choice between two evils. I might feel a bit bad about it, but ultimately the ends would justify the means.

 

[Knight Templar]

Yes, it was the right thing to do. Ultimately, ideals are only played out in the minds of the living and the free. A dead people or an enslaved one no longer have ideals.

No one in the galaxy would care one bit about what the "ideals" of the Federation were if they were conquered by the Dominion. In fact, those very ideals might become completely discredited if they are seen as one of the reasons the Federation lost.

 

[Max33]

It's when times are the toughest and the dire that the truth of someone is told... that's who they really are. Lie's and murder are the dishonarable acts and practice of a coward.

The gavel comes down " Guilty " exclaims Q... the human race ceases to exist in a flash of light.

 

[BillJ]

It's when times are the toughest and the dire that the truth of someone is told... that's who they really are. Lie's and murder are the dishonarable acts and practice of a coward.

The gavel comes down " Guilty " exclaims Q... the human race ceases to exist in a flash of light.

Might want to climb down off the high horse there.

I'm sure most here would do practically anything to protect the lives and freedom of those closest to them. If I have to dirty my hands to ensure my children continue to live free... I'll do what I have to do.

If I can ensure that millions aren't brutally executed by Hitler and Stalin, I'd pull the trigger killing both myself.

 

[DonIago]

Of course it's easy to say you'd kill Hitler to prevent the death of millions if you could, when you have no idea whether that would actually make the world an ultimately better place.

Hell, that's one of the main reasons that "Endgame" pisses me off. The reason for time-travel in that episode is so amazingly selfish.

 

[sonak]

It's when times are the toughest and the dire that the truth of someone is told... that's who they really are. Lie's and murder are the dishonarable acts and practice of a coward.

The gavel comes down " Guilty " exclaims Q... the human race ceases to exist in a flash of light.

this kind of attitude has always baffled me. You think an enslaved AQ is going to wake up under the bootheel of Dominion oppression, and millions or billions are being slaughtered, and that they're going to say "well, we've been conquered and enslaved, but at least our leaders didn't dirty their hands in trying to win the war for us. We were true to our principles."

 

[DonIago]

To some, morality, which, granted, is a relative term, is more important than survival.

I don't know that I'd even be able to bring myself to kill one other person to ensure my survival, much less deceive an entire foreign power into a war that I know will cost countless lives.

But hey, it's not like Sisko had to face the children of any of the Romulan soldiers who died for his lie.

 

[blackzoid]

No I wouldnt... Sisko wouldnt... You know for damn sure Picard wouldnt. ( Kirk would )

Knolodge of intent like that makes everything the Federation stands for, in the modern series, a lie.

Sisko was a real dissapointment in that moment, even though his only true crime was being a dupe... his willingness to fabricate evidence in order to draw a planet into a war was the act of a desperate man who abandoned his principals. Once you do that, theres truely never any going back. If he had any integrity at all he would have resigned his Starfleet commision " oh Kai-Winn you've been a self-centered and power hungery kai, the only absolution is to step down "

And what happens to everybody favorite, loveable scumbag Garrak ? Nothin... he just goes back to hemming pants... really? " You just tricked me into murdering another sentiant lifeform for our own political agenda, you Jerk!!! See ya in Quarks later on..."

Way to take a dump on whats supposed to be the guiding light of decency and hope in the galaxy... good job.

I agree mostly with what you say. Sisko has done (necessary) wrong. Even though he acted in the best interests of the Quadrant, to maintain the moral standards of the Federation, the correct thing would have him come clean when the war is over and go on trial for his actions. Its something that should not be forgotten about by Sisko and just swept aside. He did the strategic thing but he is also partly responsible for two deaths.

Win the war, than he has to resign and go on trial. Simple.
(And whoever knew about his decision at Starfleet Command)