In the future of Syntehol, is there underage drinking?
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A traditional mojito, certainly. Some blended-ice slushy abomination? Perish the thought.Looking at the original question:
"Underage drinking" is a legal concept. We've got no idea whether there is a "legal drinking age" for synethol so also no idea whether the concept of "underage drinking" exists.
Adolescents are always going to indulge in boundary-pushing and I don't see that changing in the future but we don't know whether this is a boundary.
The questions are: whether synethol carries any risks; what those risks might be and whether those risks are such that it would be seen to be inadvisable for young people to be consuming it. One of the basic reasons for there to be a legal drinking age is that alcohol causes physical damage and that damage is greater in immature bodies. If synthehol carries risk then I would expect there to be some kind of limitations on its consumption. Looking at the information available on-screen, it seems to be contradictory in that some people/species have trouble breaking-down synthehol but also that synthehol avoids problems like hangovers and alcohol poisoning. That some people have problems for whatever reasons suggests that synthehol isn't entirely benign so I would expect there to be a "legal drinking age" of some description although the legal ages for the consumption of synthehol and alcohol might differ.
No. Wesley could not have a mojito before class. Frankly, I can't imagine why anyone would want to drink a mojito at any time!
A thought comes to mind of certain European countries where the legal purchase age for hard liquor is higher than that for beer.
Also, if there is to be a legal drinking age, it should be taken into consideration that different species physically age and mature at different rates. But would there be complaints of discrimination if the legal drinking age in the Federation or on Earth differed according to species?
Kor
If I was a teen in Star Trek, I’d be trying to figure out a way to smuggle in some chech’tluth to spike the Homecoming punch bowl with.
So I’m pretty sure that they’d still be doing much the same two centuries from now.
So I’m pretty sure that they’d still be doing much the same two centuries from now.
In "Symbosis", Wesley is confused as to why people should use drugs. There are two things that suggests. The first is that the conditions for much drug use (inequality; misery) are missing in the Federation. Secondly that altered states of consciousness aren't considered to be desirable or acceptable.
These days, most alcohol use isn't because people like the taste (most alcohol drunk is bland and inoffensive, or is heavily adulterated with sugar and flavourings) but because they like the effects. If being under the influence of alcohol became less acceptable (as, indeed, it has become in particular circumstances - at work, when driving - for instance) then people will be drinking less. The purpose of drinking alcohol will move towards the particular flavours and structures found in alcoholic drinks and away from the effects of alcohol.
These days, most alcohol use isn't because people like the taste (most alcohol drunk is bland and inoffensive, or is heavily adulterated with sugar and flavourings) but because they like the effects. If being under the influence of alcohol became less acceptable (as, indeed, it has become in particular circumstances - at work, when driving - for instance) then people will be drinking less. The purpose of drinking alcohol will move towards the particular flavours and structures found in alcoholic drinks and away from the effects of alcohol.
That’s Wesley.
As in Wesley Crusher, Boy Starfleet himself.
Starfleet may cover the majority of human space, but there are still literally thousands of worlds where Starfleet is a joke and it’s nanny-state naïveté.
Also, alcohol and drug use isn’t just used for relief, or to taste certain flavors. That is hopium forecasting by Star Trek. This is where Star Trek unlike Star Wars, for me, diverges from reality.
Star Wars wasn’t afraid to show the gangsters and wretched hives of scum and villainy, and that included drug use and alcohol that didn’t get used to solve inequality or alleviate misery. Some do it for the thrill—what thrills are there in the hyper-sterile Star Trek universe? The holodeck? Lmao Where is the pod racing? The dangerous and instantly fatal Kessel Run? Where are the real gangsters like the Hutts? Ferengi are like Gangster Lite.
Drugs are used out of boredom, for the thrill-seeking, and for religious ecstasy, to make but a few reasons. Others would include for specific physiological effects that might be considered an enhancement or weaponization (like the Empire using ryl spice to induce mild telepathic abilities in its spies). It feels like the range of the spectrum of good and evil is broader in Star Wars than Star Trek when it comes to such things, and I get Star Trek was made for tv and to be episodic.
Alcohol/synthehol is just one of the things in Star Trek that stand out like a sore thumb to someone who is a huge Star Wars EU fan. Star Trek, because of the treatment of such topics, comes off as hyper-sterile and makes Starfleet feel a bit…too goody-two shoes. I guess that’s why I always liked seeing Romulans and Ferengi because they were always quick to tell the Federation to sod off and mind their own business.
As in Wesley Crusher, Boy Starfleet himself.
Starfleet may cover the majority of human space, but there are still literally thousands of worlds where Starfleet is a joke and it’s nanny-state naïveté.
Also, alcohol and drug use isn’t just used for relief, or to taste certain flavors. That is hopium forecasting by Star Trek. This is where Star Trek unlike Star Wars, for me, diverges from reality.
Star Wars wasn’t afraid to show the gangsters and wretched hives of scum and villainy, and that included drug use and alcohol that didn’t get used to solve inequality or alleviate misery. Some do it for the thrill—what thrills are there in the hyper-sterile Star Trek universe? The holodeck? Lmao Where is the pod racing? The dangerous and instantly fatal Kessel Run? Where are the real gangsters like the Hutts? Ferengi are like Gangster Lite.
Drugs are used out of boredom, for the thrill-seeking, and for religious ecstasy, to make but a few reasons. Others would include for specific physiological effects that might be considered an enhancement or weaponization (like the Empire using ryl spice to induce mild telepathic abilities in its spies). It feels like the range of the spectrum of good and evil is broader in Star Wars than Star Trek when it comes to such things, and I get Star Trek was made for tv and to be episodic.
Alcohol/synthehol is just one of the things in Star Trek that stand out like a sore thumb to someone who is a huge Star Wars EU fan. Star Trek, because of the treatment of such topics, comes off as hyper-sterile and makes Starfleet feel a bit…too goody-two shoes. I guess that’s why I always liked seeing Romulans and Ferengi because they were always quick to tell the Federation to sod off and mind their own business.
I belive the term is "evolved." Star Trek takes a very sanitized view of humanity, appealing to the aspirational side over the pragmatic.
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I get that, but it would be nice to see the actual aspiring. If every child is a Wesley Crusher, there is stagnation because they do only and exactly what the Federation tells them, and grow into adults who do the same. If they start as perfectly molded, where is the actual "growth" of childhood? Where are the delinquents who like binge drinking and partying but are slowly molded into respectable and admirable adults? We're missing out on the growth part of it, and see only the finished product. We get hints of it, but never actually see it. Tom Paris was a lot closer to having more of that depth of character that showed that yeah, he obeyed Starfleet, but only because he didn't have better solutions, until he did (and then he built the Delta Flyer). Completely non-regulation, and wholly better than anything put out by Starfleet in the shuttle class.
Kids are gonna be kids, and those not bound to the incredibly stiff protocols of the Federation by dint of birth ("My father is an admiral!") are going to attend something that looks more normal than a Federation school. The Starfleet program (as even stated on the show--I'm paraphrasing, here) is not the end-all and be-all for every single human. Not everyone wants to be a member of Starfleet. Attending more normal schools (i.e., those not trying to catapult people into space via their Starfleet program) are gonna be kids who aren't so loyal to the Wesley Crusher-esque ideals of Starfleet. Part of growing up is acting out to find your own individuality. Sometimes, it's not gonna be neat or clean. The result is an oppressive atmosphere that makes me more curious about what the Romulans and Cardassians are doing simply because they're not Starfleet. It's oppressive in that there's no real depth to the expressions of individuality, and everyone comes across as cardboard cutouts of Starfleet.
It's only in Riker and Troi, Seven of Nine, and others like them, that we see true expressions of individuality (usually involving the Holodeck or shore leave), and that's because they're of suffiiciently high enough rank to be above the petty dictates of Starfleet that the cadets must obey or be terminated.
And be terminated, to what? That's never really been explored. Where do they go when they drop out or are terminated? It would be nice to see the contrast of a character who is non-Federation trying to navigate the society of the Federation. Someone who disagrees more often than agrees with Starfleet. Yes, I get that Star Trek is supposed to be a sanitized vision of hopeful aspiration for humanity.
And apologies ahead of time. I haven't really caught up on anything post-Voyager beyond Generations because I started getting into Star Wars, so if there have been such explorations of character, I am not aware of them. And this is in no way meant as a slight--the characters themselves all have personalities, it just seems they're so...shallow. We never hear about what any of them want to do after retiring or after finishing a tour. What, you go through Starfleet and suddenly, you want to eat, sleep and die on a Starfleet ship? We never really hear about their hobbies except in minor inconsequential ways. Where are those who want to do a tour, get out, and open up a greasy spoon diner and refueling station on an asteroid somehwere? Where are the ones who aspire to lay hands on a frigate and turn it into a casino? Yeah, I get money is not an issue in Star Trek but that still doesn't mean someone wouldn't want to open up a business. Or does Starfleet remove the desire for entreprenuership as well? Or would that be the Federation that killed the spirit of entrepreneurship because money isn't a thing? Maybe the Ferengi have the right idea after all.
Probably explains why they have to flavor it. Wait, would that make synthehol the Olde English Cherry Preserves of the Federation?
I think the larger question is, with the removal of deleterious effects caused by an action such as alcohol drinking, and a case-by-case evaluation of one's maturity level and subsequent physiological and mental readiness to perform an action responsibly, what else prevents one from doing something that is tied to an age requirement today, earlier than recommended or legislated now?
Morality, (religious or otherwise), cultural tradition - the importance of "rites of passage" in various people groups (well, you might be stronger or smarter than your ancestors were, or alternately less mature in a world/community that lets kids be kids and doesn't ask them to grow up mentally as fast), biology - you might be healthier and thus have more of your lifespan left before you ought to do something - speed of education/development - most of your people are not wunderkinds and will not be ready for it at their current knowledge and skill level, average among you - the rules of other planets - yours might allow it early, but not most others.
Morality, (religious or otherwise), cultural tradition - the importance of "rites of passage" in various people groups (well, you might be stronger or smarter than your ancestors were, or alternately less mature in a world/community that lets kids be kids and doesn't ask them to grow up mentally as fast), biology - you might be healthier and thus have more of your lifespan left before you ought to do something - speed of education/development - most of your people are not wunderkinds and will not be ready for it at their current knowledge and skill level, average among you - the rules of other planets - yours might allow it early, but not most others.
But thing is...we goody-two-shoes people exist too. I've never gotten drunk, high, or even smoked anything in my entire life. I just don't need stuff like that for me, personally. People like me aren't unrealistic, we exist. Just like there are people who will use drugs no matter what society is like, there will also those who do not wish to use them, no matter what the society they exist in looks like.
And I do think that yes, while it's not the only reason people turn to drugs, eliminating poverty and major inequality and the despair that comes with it would eliminate a large part of drug use. And more importantly, it would eliminate the kind of drug use that is the ugliest kind, in my eyes. I am friends with an ex heroin addict who's health is absolutely wrecked because of her past addiction and who definitely would have never gotten addicted to the stuff if it wasn't for the utterly awful childhood and youth she had to endure. But with condition as they existed for her she was homeless at 13 and naturally slid into that scene just to get some relief.
If people want to do it for their pleasure and thrill. Well I have my opinions on that too, but if it doesn't effect anybody but themselves, let them do it, if they must. But if these people then reap the consequences of their habits, it's on them, not on their situation.
In addition in a society like the Federation drug related crime would then go down to very low/almost zero, since the people who do it just for pleasure/thrill would be able to afford it easily. This would eliminate more of the ugliest aspects of recreational drugs.
As for thrills in general...
Whatever each of us thinks about it, it also seems Star Trek works under the implication that people get their thrills from things like serving in Starfleet and charting the unkown. I also wouldn't dismiss the Holodeck, it's basically an advanced video game. I've never tried drugs or watched a car race in hopes of seeing somebody crash to "get my thrills". The very idea sounds pretty silly from my personal POV, tbh. But I've definitely played computer games or went on a roller coaster or watched a scary movie. And those are all things the holodeck could very easily simulate.
We know that there's humans who live outside the Federation because they want to, like Vash, but that's the thing, they choose to, they aren't driven to it out of despair, and that's the desirable aspect for me.
One would have to ask why this would be a part of it if they can get their needs met and parents are attentive. There is growth, but usually more encouraging exploration of hobbies, developing an understanding of the Federation and it's multi-cultural identity.
I think I like DS9 because it asks this question and doesn't really give a fully satisfactory answer.
Expansion at all costs and exploitation of peoples? I mean, I'm all for capitalism but I don't think the Ferengi show that as a positive attitude at all.
Quark does from time to time show willingness to grow beyond the stereotype but I don't think all of Ferengi culture is quite the right idea, though I don't think all of the Federation is quite the right idea either.
I'm gonna use spoiler tags so I don't wall of words the thread
Boys are extremely competitive and aggressive when in their own peer groups without adult supervision. This competiveness often involves a daring nature that skirts as close to death as possible for the largest amount of bragging rights. This is an instinctual atavism from our time when surivival demanded absolute domination in terms of raw physicality and athleticism, and as such, it cannot be erased. No amount of propaganda or government-sponsored conditioning (because that's exactly what Starfleet and the Federation are) will erase this. Ever. It can only be suppressed, and only for so long, or you wind up with broken people.
Most often, among boys, this results in them binge drinking, or trying to be edgy by smoking [Algarine Torve Weed] out behind the local 7-11 and acting like idiots in cars they spent all their time suping up. This is because traditional masculine sports, like skeet shooting and hunting, started actively being defunded and discouraged by the DoE, so teenagers found other things to do with their time. Now, where are the adrenaline junkies in Star Trek, if you remove alcohol and mild drug use? Where are the gear heads who like ripping apart junked spacecraft in their spare time to see what they can put together? Where are the rifle and pistol clubs that go out and shoot targets on a range just to blow stuff up safelly and watch the fireworks?
Not everyone is into band or computer programming or trying to explore. I want to see the guys racing shuttles in space at the blistering edge of their capabilities for the pure adrenaline high because as a teen, they used to do shitty synthehol shots and wrench on old Starfleet junk that was sold off as obsolete to supe up their own hovercraft while dreaming of seeing how fast they could get in a stripped down shuttle in space? Which brings me to the next comment.
Most often, among boys, this results in them binge drinking, or trying to be edgy by smoking [Algarine Torve Weed] out behind the local 7-11 and acting like idiots in cars they spent all their time suping up. This is because traditional masculine sports, like skeet shooting and hunting, started actively being defunded and discouraged by the DoE, so teenagers found other things to do with their time. Now, where are the adrenaline junkies in Star Trek, if you remove alcohol and mild drug use? Where are the gear heads who like ripping apart junked spacecraft in their spare time to see what they can put together? Where are the rifle and pistol clubs that go out and shoot targets on a range just to blow stuff up safelly and watch the fireworks?
Not everyone is into band or computer programming or trying to explore. I want to see the guys racing shuttles in space at the blistering edge of their capabilities for the pure adrenaline high because as a teen, they used to do shitty synthehol shots and wrench on old Starfleet junk that was sold off as obsolete to supe up their own hovercraft while dreaming of seeing how fast they could get in a stripped down shuttle in space? Which brings me to the next comment.
Don't get me wrong--I've had friends who were very much Wesley Crusher types. There's nothing wrong with goody-two shoes types. Some of us just find we value individual expression more than the law. But again, not everyone wants to explore space, or would want to enter Starfleet. Some of us enjoy the thrill of experience more than the mores of society.
However, even in a sterlized world like the Federation's Earth, there would be a criminal underclass. Who on earth do you think funds all the heroin farms in the Golden Triangle and the Golden Crescent? People with more money and political power than wisdom. Not gangs. Not the cartels. Those are strictly managed by...others. That is why there would even still be a taste for such illicit substances in the Federation's Earth, and there would be those that would supply them, for a price. No money? No problem. Hawala banking would do just fine: I bring you these three casks of Romulan Brandy, you bring me three shuttle craft. We go our separate ways, no names given, no questions asked.
That is the likely outcome that would happen a lot more than one would think. I know it's been hinted at time and again in Star Trek episodes, but it usually involves traitors selling secrets to the Romulans or some such shenanigans, rather than just simply a case of greed or gluttony. I get it's episodic, though, and they only have so much time to fill.
Now, is synthehol the gateway drink to running a Federation version of Heisenburg's criminal empire? I highly doubt it. For the vast majority of the time, swiping a can of synthehol beer isn't going to be the end of the world, nor should it be treated as such. I think therefore that it's still gonna be around for those with no hope of getting into Starfleet (or desire to) who would rather simply do other stuff beside "farm" which seems to be all that anyone other than Starfleet does--that or "manage an establishment." So generic. lmao
The holodeck is great on it's own, especially since we can now build them, and I don't mind those types of episodes, but you can't build much on just that alone. I actually like the Wesley Crusher floating plot lines because it's interesting to see him come back on after growing up a bit--I only wish they could have gotten some kind of footage of him in between where we actually see what he was off doing. That complexity added great depth.
However, even in a sterlized world like the Federation's Earth, there would be a criminal underclass. Who on earth do you think funds all the heroin farms in the Golden Triangle and the Golden Crescent? People with more money and political power than wisdom. Not gangs. Not the cartels. Those are strictly managed by...others. That is why there would even still be a taste for such illicit substances in the Federation's Earth, and there would be those that would supply them, for a price. No money? No problem. Hawala banking would do just fine: I bring you these three casks of Romulan Brandy, you bring me three shuttle craft. We go our separate ways, no names given, no questions asked.
That is the likely outcome that would happen a lot more than one would think. I know it's been hinted at time and again in Star Trek episodes, but it usually involves traitors selling secrets to the Romulans or some such shenanigans, rather than just simply a case of greed or gluttony. I get it's episodic, though, and they only have so much time to fill.
Now, is synthehol the gateway drink to running a Federation version of Heisenburg's criminal empire? I highly doubt it. For the vast majority of the time, swiping a can of synthehol beer isn't going to be the end of the world, nor should it be treated as such. I think therefore that it's still gonna be around for those with no hope of getting into Starfleet (or desire to) who would rather simply do other stuff beside "farm" which seems to be all that anyone other than Starfleet does--that or "manage an establishment." So generic. lmao
The holodeck is great on it's own, especially since we can now build them, and I don't mind those types of episodes, but you can't build much on just that alone. I actually like the Wesley Crusher floating plot lines because it's interesting to see him come back on after growing up a bit--I only wish they could have gotten some kind of footage of him in between where we actually see what he was off doing. That complexity added great depth.
Because not everyone wants to be in Starfleet? See my first answer above. Where are the adrenaline junkies? Where are the gear heads? The garage bands? The avante garde? I get the show is called Star Trek. lol It's about Starfleet, but those types are going to be very likely the types who steal a few synthehol beers and go drink while dreaming of what they want to do. Some hobbies aren't so lofty as Starfleet.
And the very idea of synthehol discredits all the people who would likely be moonshining under the Federation's noses. Microwbreweries have always been a thing, and likely always will be, so underage drinking, because of it being a form of competitiveness in the social strata of youth, will also likely be around as well.
Ferengi might be an extreme example, but that doesn't answer my original question about where are the entrepreneurs, although that really is to the current topic, so apologies.
And the very idea of synthehol discredits all the people who would likely be moonshining under the Federation's noses. Microwbreweries have always been a thing, and likely always will be, so underage drinking, because of it being a form of competitiveness in the social strata of youth, will also likely be around as well.
Ferengi might be an extreme example, but that doesn't answer my original question about where are the entrepreneurs, although that really is to the current topic, so apologies.
I mean, we see some with Tom Paris, as well as Rutheford in Lower Decks, so I would say they exist but are not a part of the story so not really relevant.
One would question why one would steal synthehol beers if they are freely available. Perhaps that is part of how risk is managed is that these experimenting teens get the freedom to do so in a safe environment with those controls. If you want to rebel, well, that is what the colonies are for, people who want the risk and danger, or like Dr. Servin's group from "Way To Eden," or the colonists from "Up the Long Ladder," "Paradise," Yar's planet, Vash's exploration, Jason Vigo's life before meeting Picard, etc.
Competition? Well, we know tennis is still a competitive sport in the 24th century, as well as paresi (sp?) squares, which is apparently can be fatal. Plus piloting risky maneuvers at the academy.
It's there but not the focus.
Nor should it be. I meant swiping them from a parent. It's underage drinking, not of legal age drinking. lol
I can't help thinking there would be some kind of Star Trek version of American Graffiti, I just can't imagine what it would look like. Narration at the end would be like, "Ben, he went off and became a vender of an establishment, and Wes, he wound up on some fancy ship in Starfleet."
I can't help thinking there would be some kind of Star Trek version of American Graffiti, I just can't imagine what it would look like. Narration at the end would be like, "Ben, he went off and became a vender of an establishment, and Wes, he wound up on some fancy ship in Starfleet."
If it's underage at all. Which I think someone else in this thread asked the questions about and looking at the legal aspects of it.
These days, that's about as harmless as it gets for teenage "rebellion." My daughter is only two so it's not something I'm going to have to worry about for a while, but we don't really keep much beyond a Spotted Cow in the house, but that's not likely much stronger than synthehol, if at all.
I suspect that synethol comes in a variety of strengths.
Synthale (syntheholic ale/beer) is likely similar to the 5.1% strength of Spotted Cow. OTOH, syntheholic wine and particularly spirits are likely to mimic a much higher value until dismissed.
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