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In The 23rd Century . . .

Not to veer to far back onto the topic, but the first evidence on TOS for a 23rd century timeframe is in "Miri". A contemporary - to the show, given that "Miri" is situated on a parallel version of 1960s Earth - piano is noted and Spock is asked how old it is. He replies that it is three hundred years old.

It is not an explicit dating but nevertheless illustrates that by the eighth episode, the staff was already toying with the 23rd century as the show's timeframe.
 
One then wonders whether Spock dates it by looks, or by referring to a tricorder scan of the room that he already conducted for obvious tactical purposes.

If the former, perhaps he's an expert on old Earth pianos by the same token that he plays the piano and recognizes the handwriting and style of Brahms.

If the latter, though, the piano could be 300 years old but done in a style that was current in Earth 200 years ago, or 1,200 years ago.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Trelane was a child. It would make about as much sense to extrapolate the capabilities and limitations of his species from observing him as it would to extrapolate the capabilities and limitations of people from observing our children play.

Trelane was probably concerned with instrumentality at that particular moment simply because the people he was playing with were concerned with it. Trelane is playing, when a starship of people who depend on instrumentality comes upon him. To play with them, he decides to try to meet them on their terms and better them. That doesn't mean that Trelane depends upon instrumentality himself.

Toys of a god-child would probably seem seriously impressive to a mortal, just as our children tower over ants, both literally and figuratively.

+1
 
Not to veer to far back onto the topic, but the first evidence on TOS for a 23rd century timeframe is in "Miri". A contemporary - to the show, given that "Miri" is situated on a parallel version of 1960s Earth - piano is noted and Spock is asked how old it is. He replies that it is three hundred years old.

It is not an explicit dating but nevertheless illustrates that by the eighth episode, the staff was already toying with the 23rd century as the show's timeframe.

Well, "the staff" at the time would've been Roddenberry, Coon, and the story editor. TV shows' writing in the '60s was far more freelancer-driven, rather than staff-driven like it is today. Ideas were generated and developed by outside writers, and the producer and story editor either kept them or changed them as they saw fit. First-season TOS was making stuff up as it went, and a lot of that came from freelancers suggesting their own ideas, which sometimes worked well enough to be enshrined in future continuity and sometimes got ignored later on.
 
The original post was
Where was it first established on film that TOS took place in the 23rd century?
That particular reference from "Miri" had lasting significance in that it was used by fan author Chuck Graham (I hope I am recalling his name correctly) to put together one of the earliest Star Trek fan chronologies. Graham's chronology would later be used by Geoff Mandel for the basis of his much better known chronology, which got used by Lee Cole and others on Ballantine's "Star Trek Maps" project. I'm not sure if it is the Cole connection or not, but the many competing ideas of when TOS took place quickly reduced to just two- the Spaceflight Chronology/FASA dating and the slightly later date that eventually was explicitly adopted in the first season of TNG.
So I think the "Miri" to Graham to Mandel to Cole route had a lot to do with where we ended up and why it wasn't first established by Decker in TMP as being in the 22nd or 27th centuries.
 
I'm not sure if it is the Cole connection or not, but the many competing ideas of when TOS took place quickly reduced to just two- the Spaceflight Chronology/FASA dating and the slightly later date that eventually was explicitly adopted in the first season of TNG.

I wouldn't say "slightly." The two schemes differ by about 60 years, with the SFC version putting TOS in the first decade of the 2200s and the other, now-official version putting it in the 2260s.
 
Is it possible that Trelane just traveled back in time to 900 years in earths past without even know it?? Would that make sense and keep the TOS in the 22nd or 23rd century?
 
^It wouldn't fit the dialogue.

JAEGER: Notice the period, Captain. Nine hundred light years from Earth. It's what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough.
TRELANE: Ah, yes. I've been looking in on the doings on your lively little Earth.
KIRK: Then you've been looking in on the doings nine hundred years past.

The lines require the characters to recognize the 1800s as being 900 years in their own past.
 
Yep, it's impossible to pin down a specific timeframe from the series alone.

Lately, it seems that certain fans have been insisting that TOS absolutely took place in the 22nd century, but within the series, there isn't actually a solid basis for that. :shrug:

Kor
 
Lately, it seems that certain fans have been insisting that TOS absolutely took place in the 22nd century, but within the series, there isn't actually a solid basis for that. :shrug:

I think there have always been some who favored that interpretation.

To summarize:

"Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed" suggest late 22nd century.

"Miri" and "Metamorphosis" suggest 23rd century.

"The Squire of Gothos" suggests 28th century.

Blish "Miri" suggests 27th century. Blish "Squire" suggests 28th century. Blish "Space Seed" explicitly states 23rd century. The Making of Star Trek says 23rd century.

TAS: "The Infinite Vulcan" aligns with "Space Seed" in suggesting late 22nd or early 23rd century -- Keniclius is from the Eugenics Wars era, would "have to be over 250 years old," and has been out of touch for 200 years. But "The Slaver Weapon" says the last of the four Man-Kzin Wars was 200 years before, suggesting late 23rd century at the very least. (In the Known Space universe, the Man-Kzin Wars span the 24th and 25th centuries, and "The Soft Weapon" is in the mid-27th century.)

TMP indicates late 23rd century at earliest. TMP trailers state 23rd century. TWOK opening caption says 23rd century and dialogue suggests post-2283, putting TOS in late 2260s.

TNG says McCoy is 137 in 2364, ruling out a TOS time frame earlier than 2260s.

VGR: "Q2" explicitly dates the end of the 5-year mission as 2270.
 
The lines require the characters to recognize the 1800s as being 900 years in their own past.
Naah. The lines require the characters to recognize "the period" as being 900 years in their own past.

And the period in evidence could well be the 1300s, as that's what the set was originally built to represent:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x17/The_Squire_of_Gothos_080.JPG

That Trelane additionally has littered the place with various anachronisms (such as the tricolor flag of Italy!) may not be relevant to Jaeger who recognizes the general setting. ;)

Timo Saloniemi
 
The lines require the characters to recognize the 1800s as being 900 years in their own past.
Naah. The lines require the characters to recognize "the period" as being 900 years in their own past.

And the period in evidence could well be the 1300s, as that's what the set was originally built to represent:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x17/The_Squire_of_Gothos_080.JPG

That Trelane additionally has littered the place with various anachronisms (such as the tricolor flag of Italy!) may not be relevant to Jaeger who recognizes the general setting. ;)

Timo Saloniemi
Exactly. Yager says "notice the period captain". So whether the original series takes place in the 23rd century (2267) or the late 22nd century following the other episodes that state 200 years from 1996, "2 centuries we estimate" (Space Seed) you are looking at the 14th century time period. Which makes perfect sense as everything in Trelane castle including the castle itself is Medieval.
 
We are relying on Jagger being an accurate historian, which he demonstrably is not.

If Spock had said it in the other hand...

but he did not.
 
QUOTE=Timo;11344087]
The lines require the characters to recognize the 1800s as being 900 years in their own past.
Naah. The lines require the characters to recognize "the period" as being 900 years in their own past.

And the period in evidence could well be the 1300s, as that's what the set was originally built to represent:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x17/The_Squire_of_Gothos_080.JPG

That Trelane additionally has littered the place with various anachronisms (such as the tricolor flag of Italy!) may not be relevant to Jaeger who recognizes the general setting. ;)

Timo Saloniemi

As I'm reading it, I don't see the inherent logic of what you're saying. As a child, Trelane may simply prefer the foreboding looking castle exterior from a much earlier time period he's also cognizant of, combined with the gloomy exterior to create an intimidating impression on his guests. Meanwhile, the interior is consistent with his contemporary knowledge of Earth as he knows it. Even here there are inconsistencies that might indicate a personal matter of taste. As mentioned by an earlier poster, we hear Strauss and yet most of the accoutrements inside, including Trelane's dress, indicate something along the Regency period timeframe and there's the flag you mention.

To assume that Trelane slavishly reproduced everything according to his current knowledge seems problematic as his sensibilities are such that one can easily imagine him not being so programmatic in recreating what he has learned about Earth throughout its history.
 
There's no sense trying to rationalize it. It's simply a continuity error resulting from the fact that the makers of the show hadn't yet settled on a time frame. Gene Roddenberry's own approach to Star Trek was based on the conceit that it was a dramatized recreation based on Kirk's logs, one that was sometimes embellished or inaccurate. The stories happened, but they way they happened was not necessarily exactly like what we were shown on TV. So by Roddenberry's own approach, the whole "900 years" business would simply be a factual error in the dramatization.
 
Must have been a rather awful documentarian at work to not remember what century the events took place in!
 
Must have been a rather awful documentarian at work to not remember what century the events took place in!

Maybe someone who thought that Napoleon was from the 14th century. A lot of TV shows are really bad with history. (Like, say, asserting that the Apollo and the other Greek gods were on Earth 5000 years before, which is at least two millennia too early.)
 
Maybe Jaeger was keying on the castle, the torches, the fireplace, the armor, and the swords and buckler for his initial assessment. Missed or did not recognize the bust of Napoleon.
After all, the dialog references to the 19th century come after the 900 year exchange.
 
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