In STID, when Kirk told Chekov to "go put a red shirt on",...?

[Pauln6]

I just took it that Chekov felt he was going in over his head as chief engineer. It was one of thing for him to dabble in engineering, quite another to suddenly be put in charge of it, especially with the ship about to go into danger, IMO.

Yeah it was an in-joke. But the whole promote the navigator who only qualified from Starfleet a year ago to be chief engineer scenario was rather ludicrous. It shows Kirk up to be a hopeless adminstrator but I guess it's no worse than promoting a cadet to first officer. It's so reminiscent of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer is put in charge of the submarine.

 

[Cyke101]

I just took it that Chekov felt he was going in over his head as chief engineer. It was one of thing for him to dabble in engineering, quite another to suddenly be put in charge of it, especially with the ship about to go into danger, IMO.

Yeah it was an in-joke. But the whole promote the navigator who only qualified from Starfleet a year ago to be chief engineer scenario was rather ludicrous. It shows Kirk up to be a hopeless adminstrator but I guess it's no worse than promoting a cadet to first officer. It's so reminiscent of that scene in the Simpsons where Homer is put in charge of the submarine.

Not to excuse anything, but it did seem like Kirk made that decision in haste, and he was still steaming from the whole revenge-suicide idea (which is what made Scotty resign in the first place). I think a case could be made that that appointing Chekov was part of the list of emotional mistakes he made because of Pike's death. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Kirk thought of Chekov not just because he happened to be the physically closest on the bridge, but also because he knew Chekov better than even some of Scotty's subordinates.

In defense of Chekov though, that instant promotion wasn't his fault, and he did the best he could. I'd rather take Chief Chekov over, say, that jerk Chief Logan who kept giving LaForge grief (coincidentally, another example of taking a command position over someone of higher rank).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

it did seem like Kirk made that decision in haste, and he was still steaming from the whole revenge-suicide idea (which is what made Scotty resign in the first place). I think a case could be made that that appointing Chekov was part of the list of emotional mistakes he made because of Pike's death.

Agreed. There's no reason to think that Chekov knows anything about being AN engineer, let alone CHIEF engineer. There had to have been dozens of more qualified candidates. The head of any major shipboard department must have assistants to take over...

 

[fireproof78]

it did seem like Kirk made that decision in haste, and he was still steaming from the whole revenge-suicide idea (which is what made Scotty resign in the first place). I think a case could be made that that appointing Chekov was part of the list of emotional mistakes he made because of Pike's death.

Agreed. There's no reason to think that Chekov knows anything about being AN engineer, let alone CHIEF engineer. There had to have been dozens of more qualified candidates. The head of any major shipboard department must have assistants to take over...

A couple of things occur to me, not as excuses but more points of discussion.

First of all, it is not made clear who all of the Engineering staff resigned in the wake of Scotty's decision. We seen Keenser, but that what seems rather obvious, at least to me. But, given Scotty's passion and speech to Kirk he might have had more resignations. I would be curious to review the staff extras in Engineering before/during Scotty's decision and later on in the film.

Secondly, and I think this was discussed in another thread, somewhere, that Starfleet seems to be based on nepotism as much as merit. Pike selects Kirk as first officer, as well as recommends him for captain of the Enterprise. Marcus talks about his role in getting Pike to join Starfleet and various other examples, so Kirk's selection of Chekov strikes me as more of the same, besides his own emotional heat of the moment.

Beyond that, it is a definite "fish out of water" moment for Chekov.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ You're right, I didn't even consider that most of Scotty's assistant engineering officers might have resigned right along with him. That would explain a few things - just not Chekov specifically. Sure, Kirk knows Chekov, but that doesn't change the fact that Chekov is not an engineer and may not know much of anything about how to BE one. It was just a random decision on Kirk's part - yes, most likely done in emotional haste.

A real world analogy might be something like, if a major metropolitan city's chief of police dies or resigns, and the mayor picks his friend the assistant manager at Walmart to replace him.

 

[BillJ]

Well, in actuality, Chekov should have died or sent someone to their death, since that little engine problem that caused Kirk to need the Khan blood, would be his to deal with

Except for Chekov had evacuated engineering then was sent to the deflector dish.

 

[fireproof78]

^ You're right, I didn't even consider that most of Scotty's assistant engineering officers might have resigned right along with him. That would explain a few things - just not Chekov specifically. Sure, Kirk knows Chekov, but that doesn't change the fact that Chekov is not an engineer and may not know much of anything about how to BE one. It was just a random decision on Kirk's part - yes, most likely done in emotional haste.

A real world analogy might be something like, if a major metropolitan city's chief of police dies or resigns, and the mayor picks his friend the assistant manager at Walmart to replace him.

Possibly, but Kirk does say that Chekov has been shadowing Scotty and learning every inch of Engineering.

Mr. Chekov, you've been shadowing Mr. Scott, so you are familiar with engineering systems of this ship?

Not the greatest justification but the possible vacancies lends a little more credibility.

A little

 

[Nerys Myk]

it did seem like Kirk made that decision in haste, and he was still steaming from the whole revenge-suicide idea (which is what made Scotty resign in the first place). I think a case could be made that that appointing Chekov was part of the list of emotional mistakes he made because of Pike's death.

Agreed. There's no reason to think that Chekov knows anything about being AN engineer, let alone CHIEF engineer. There had to have been dozens of more qualified candidates. The head of any major shipboard department must have assistants to take over...

This is the point where I mention, Lt jg. Geordi Laforge who goes from fight control to Chief Engineer between seasons on TNG.

 

[Timo]

Scotty never seemed to have a problem wearing a red shirt.

He was one of the worst-maimed main'ish characters in TOS, losing a finger to Apollo melting his phaser and whatnot. He even got killed once! That he shows a brave face doesn't mean he wouldn't be well versed in the curse...

I think one point about Kirk choosing Chekov has been overlooked so far: Chekov is the Wunderkind. Never mind the Wunder-part - it merely makes him qualified for each and every position in Starfleet. The emphasis is on the Kind.

That is, Chekov is a kid whom Kirk can boss around, a necessary qualification when a man capable of thinking with his own brain just walked out on Kirk. Kirk desperately needs a yes-man who blindly obeys him, even though Kirk very well knows that what he's doing is damned illegal and ill-advised.

Is Chief Engineer a demanding position? In normal circumstances, extremely so. But Kirk is hoping for a quick in-and-out during which no engineering crises will be encountered. When the warp core stalls on him, it must be quite a feeling in his tummy: "I just fired the one man whose skills might have saved our lives!"

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

it did seem like Kirk made that decision in haste, and he was still steaming from the whole revenge-suicide idea (which is what made Scotty resign in the first place). I think a case could be made that that appointing Chekov was part of the list of emotional mistakes he made because of Pike's death.

Agreed. There's no reason to think that Chekov knows anything about being AN engineer, let alone CHIEF engineer. There had to have been dozens of more qualified candidates. The head of any major shipboard department must have assistants to take over...

This is the point where I mention, Lt jg. Geordi Laforge who goes from fight control to Chief Engineer between seasons on TNG.

Or Belanna Torres, who is made Chief Engineer of a starship class she'd never served on over a more experienced engineer.

 

[Timo]

It's not as if Carey really could have had more practical experience on this brand-new starship of a novel type...

If Carey can handle it, this just goes to show that Starfleet engineers are generically prepared for everything. Which they seem to be anyway: they can even operate alien technology after looking at it for three and a half seconds at most. Why sweat competence when you already can handle the universe?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

It's not as if Carey really could have had more practical experience on this brand-new starship of a novel type...

If Carey can handle it, this just goes to show that Starfleet engineers are generically prepared for everything. Which they seem to be anyway: they can even operate alien technology after looking at it for three and a half seconds at most. Why sweat competence when you already can handle the universe?

Timo Saloniemi

It is likely that Carey was with the ship at least a few weeks before they launched, as prep takes time.

Off screen, I never heard any groundswell of "it's so unreal" when Torres took over. Like most things, it's more about whose making the decisions than the actual decisions made.

 

[xvicente]

^^^ For me, Scotty installing in 15 minutes the just-stolen, nothing-known-about-it-beforehand, alien cloakign device in TOS takes the prize.

I cant even make a cup of tea in 15 minutes.

 

[Timo]

Aren't we basically just speaking of Scotty finding the power switch and flipping it, though?

I mean, cloaking devices elsewhere are pretty simple. They are "black box" pieces of machinery that, when turned on, make themselves invisible; supposedly, you can then turn the knob that sets the range, and they englobe the entire ship they sit in... And the device Scotty had would already be set for "englobe a starship-sized object".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[xvicente]

You seem to know much about cloaking devices.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Timo is a Romulan spy.

 

[martok2112]

Back on topic, I loved the scene. A nice in-joke for those who have a long love for Star Trek, and a nice "Oh, boy," moment for Chekov.

 

[BillJ]

Back on topic, I loved the scene. A nice in-joke for those who have a long love for Star Trek, and a nice "Oh, boy," moment for Chekov.

+1

 

[Pauln6]

Off screen, I never heard any groundswell of "it's so unreal" when Torres took over. Like most things, it's more about whose making the decisions than the actual decisions made.

Torres was an experienced and talented engineer rather than a 17-year old ensign but she won out because she was much better at thinking on her feet and that was important given their situation. She would not have been picked in normal circumstances.

I think Geordi's promotion, while odd, was less of a stretch because he also has years of experience in both engineering and command. He was rather low rank considering we saw 3 engineers of lt-commander rank in season one but he wasn't an ensign.

Chekov is an inexperienced talented engineer who has spent 9 months working in a different department and only spent a few months shadowing the chief engineer. There should be maybe 2 more assistant chiefs in the department (one for each shift?) who will be higher rank than Chekov. Promote him to engineering by all means but making him the chief was lunacy. Steady as she goes Mister Mo.

It is true that you do not need your best engineer as chief - you need a good leader, good organiser, good delegater, someone who knows the talents of the staff in his/her department, and someone with rank. Chekov aint all those things.

It was a fun tongue-in-cheek moment but it was bonkers and it would have played out the same if he was just assigned to engineering as a bridge liaison.

 

[Cyke101]

Off screen, I never heard any groundswell of "it's so unreal" when Torres took over. Like most things, it's more about whose making the decisions than the actual decisions made.

I think Geordi's promotion, while odd, was less of a stretch because he also has years of experience in both engineering and command. He was rather low rank considering we saw 3 engineers of lt-commander rank in season one but he wasn't an ensign.

Chekov is an inexperienced talented engineer who has spent 9 months working in a different department and only spent a few months shadowing the chief engineer. There should be maybe 2 more assistant chiefs in the department (one for each shift?) who will be higher rank than Chekov. Promote him to engineering by all means but making him the chief was lunacy. Steady as she goes Mister Mo.

It is true that you do not need your best engineer as chief - you need a good leader, good organiser, good delegater, someone who knows the talents of the staff in his/her department, and someone with rank. Chekov aint all those things.

It was a fun tongue-in-cheek moment but it was bonkers and it would have played out the same if he was just assigned to engineering as a bridge liaison.

I dunno, the thing about Geordi is that the writers didn't really provide more backstory into his engineering background until after they promoted him. IIRC, he became Chief in S2, but his background wasn't said until S3 (I could be wrong, though. feel free to correct me).

As for Chekov, say what you will about him before he was appointed chief, but he still managed to organize the staff properly enough to fix the damage done by the sabotage and get the warp engines functioning again, even if he didn't know about the sabotage to begin with. Though by the end, I'm sure everyone on board is in agreement that Scotty is better suited for the role and that appointing Chekov could've been handled better, if at all. I imagine the job was too stressful for Chekov at that stage of his experience and he was more than happy to step down, but he still did the job he was appointed to do. I'd place more blame on Kirk than Chekov on this one (indeed, perhaps a more seasoned Chekov would be experienced enough to politiely protest the appointment).