"In some ways you're even worse than the Borg!"

[Darth_Pazuzu]

When Michael Eddington is revealed to be a Maquis at the end of the episode For The Cause, he gives an angry speech to Sisko, explaining his feelings about the Federation in no uncertain terms.

A couple of thoughts: First of all, Benjamin Sisko is probably the last person to whom you'd ever want to make an argument comparing anything to the Borg!

However, Eddington's comment also kind of reminded me of how in real life (or rather in the media), whenever someone wants to attack something for being oppressive (or for just cramping their style), they compare something to the Nazis or compare someone they intensely dislike to Adolf Hitler. And as liberal a person as I am, I often find it embarrassing when these kinds of comments are made by people of an extreme leftist stripe. Not to mention that it devalues genuine anti-fascist sentiment, numbing people and making them insensitive to things which are truly evil and fascistic.

Has this little parallel occurred to anybody else? Or is it just me?

 

[Navaros]

IMO,

"If the shoe fits..." then it's an appropriate comment.

The shoe does fit in terms of the Federation being like the Borg, therefore Eddington's comment was appropriate.

 

[Sheliak]

The Maquis were exterminated.

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

The Maquis were exterminated.

Dancing non sequitur delights bulldozers exploding sideways, forsaking Wednesday! Vindication aluminum fraught with viscera midnight, see-saw?



Okay, back on topic...

 

[Mysterion]

Thing is, Eddington was right. And about time someone said what he said.

 

[Cyke101]

Thing is, Eddington was right. And about time someone said what he said.

I agree. Eddington's argument hit upon something that's rarely discussed in Trek: the Federation as a form of hegemony. After all, in TOS and TNG, our heroes ran around the galaxy "bettering" aliens, exposing them to human ideals, and flew away once the different aliens learned their lesson (very true of Picard).

Don't get me wrong, if I were in the Star Trek verse, I'd be a proud member of the Federation. But if you apply some of those ideals, no matter how well-intentioned they are, then suddenly humanity looks very arrogant, with the upper-class putting down or assimilating the lower-class. Even Star Trek VI touched upon these arguments years before DS9 went into production. "Inalienable human rights."

But then any good point takes sharp criticism and uses it to better itself in order to counter it. I think that case can also be made, especially towards the later seasons. Eddington was clearly the bad guy, but Sisko learned his lessons.

 

[Bacl]

Thing is, Eddington was right. And about time someone said what he said.

Quark also said it, and quite frankly nailed it better than Eddington.

In our first encounter with the Jem'Haddar, Quark calls Sisko out as a racist, and points out that human history is filled with horrors: slavery, nuclear war, holocaust and genocide, intergalactic wars (the list of these is probably quite long, Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians being just the tip of the iceberg) and other horrific behavior that doesn't come close to the Ferrengi pursuit of money, greed, and having some women's rights issues.

Quark was right. Sisko's people, human beings, are a lot worse than the Ferrengi when you look at the whole of their existence.

 

[Cyke101]

Thing is, Eddington was right. And about time someone said what he said.

Quark also said it, and quite frankly nailed it better than Eddington.

Well, you can't really go wrong with a root beer analogy

 

[Anwar]

IMO,

"If the shoe fits..." then it's an appropriate comment.

The shoe does fit in terms of the Federation being like the Borg, therefore Eddington's comment was appropriate.

Nah, Eddington's comment was full of BS. Fits seeing how he turned out to be some delusional nutter who saw himself as some big hero.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

IMO,

"If the shoe fits..." then it's an appropriate comment.

The shoe does fit in terms of the Federation being like the Borg, therefore Eddington's comment was appropriate.

Nah, Eddington's comment was full of BS. Fits seeing how he turned out to be some delusional nutter who saw himself as some big hero.

Yet in that same episode, Sisko poisoned an entire planet. Yes, Eddington did that to the Cardassians, but that allows Sisko to do it too? Surely you're not going to tell me you can prove 100% there weren't noncombatants and children on that planet?

I'd say that Sisko wasn't looking too sane himself there, so it really gives one pause.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Eddington, as he often did, spouted a bunch of crap.

The Federation is nothing like the Borg. Unless somebody can tell me where the Federation forcibly assimilated cultures against their will? Destroyed entire fleets? Wiped out entire civilizations?

There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that the Federation forces member worlds to join. Indeed, it has requirements for membership (although not many), and worlds can be rejected. And in the end, if a world doesn't want to join, it doesn't have to. But the Federation does have every right to point out the benefits a world can receive if it does join. In the end, it's up to that world, not the Federation.

I realize that Eddington, being a Maquis, had an inbuilt grudge against the Federation. But that doesn't make him right. "No one leaves the Federation"? Prove it, wiseass. The Federation didn't attack the Maquis for leaving; they did it because the Maquis were endangering the peace between the Federation and Cardassia. Pure and simple.

 

[Navaros]

The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

Granted, that is not as overtly forceful as the Borg's method...but it is still morally wrong, and a shady form of assimilation. Just look at what Picard tells the Sisko in Emissary. The Sisko's purpose is to make Bajor join the Federation, period. Whether Bajor wants to, or it's in Bajor's best interest to, is irrelevant to Sisko's order from the Federation. Sisko is ordered to simply make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted, regardless of what Bajor wants or needs.

 

[DWF]

The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

Granted, that is not as overtly forceful as the Borg's method...but it is still morally wrong, and a shady form of assimilation. Just look at what Picard tells the Sisko in Emissary. The Sisko's purpose is to make Bajor join the Federation, period. Whether Bajor wants to, or it's in Bajor's best interest to, is irrelevant to Sisko's order from the Federation. Sisko is ordered to simply make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted, regardless of what Bajor wants or needs.

Then Sisko sucked at following orders since in his seven years at DS9 Bajor never joined the Federation. It's hard to believe anything Eddington says since he was perfectly willing to betray the Federation and his oath to it.

 

[Anwar]

Bajor wanted to join the Federation, it was Sisko's job to get back on their feet enough to do it. They did and they were ready but he told them not to when he foresaw the Dominion War in "Rapture" so they waited till after the war to do it.

 

[K'Ehleyr]

When Michael Eddington is revealed to be a Maquis at the end of the episode For The Cause, he gives an angry speech to Sisko, explaining his feelings about the Federation in no uncertain terms.

A couple of thoughts: First of all, Benjamin Sisko is probably the last person to whom you'd ever want to make an argument comparing anything to the Borg!

However, Eddington's comment also kind of reminded me of how in real life (or rather in the media), whenever someone wants to attack something for being oppressive (or for just cramping their style), they compare something to the Nazis or compare someone they intensely dislike to Adolf Hitler. And as liberal a person as I am, I often find it embarrassing when these kinds of comments are made by people of an extreme leftist stripe. Not to mention that it devalues genuine anti-fascist sentiment, numbing people and making them insensitive to things which are truly evil and fascistic.

Has this little parallel occurred to anybody else? Or is it just me?

I think Picard would be a little more tetchy about the Borg given his history

 

[K'Ehleyr]

The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

Granted, that is not as overtly forceful as the Borg's method...but it is still morally wrong, and a shady form of assimilation. Just look at what Picard tells the Sisko in Emissary. The Sisko's purpose is to make Bajor join the Federation, period. Whether Bajor wants to, or it's in Bajor's best interest to, is irrelevant to Sisko's order from the Federation. Sisko is ordered to simply make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted, regardless of what Bajor wants or needs.

I would not say force, or even coercion. I would like to think ST are being helpful, or am I being totally naive?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I am not much of an optimist, but the Federation has little in common with the Borg. They don't force anyone to join, they never fire first, they don't destroy other cultures.

In any case, Eddington was griping that the Federation pursued the Maquis because they "left the Federation." That is completely false. In fact, the Federation gave the border colonies the time and means to relocate. They refused--and the Federation left them alone. The Feds only got upset when the Maquis started blowing up Cardassian and Federation ships.

The whole premise of Eddington's rant is flawed. The Maquis were hunted, not because they were separatists, but because they were terrorists. Right or wrong, that's the only reason the Federation was out to stop them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation does force it's members to join in a way, via coercion.

No, it doesn't. They have never done that.

Sisko's job was to make Bajor *ready* to join. Not to force it to. The decision was up to them. If the Federation was so coercive, it would have forced Bajor to join even after "Rapture".

Like I said, the Federation has every right to point out, to a prospective member world, the benefits that it can realize if it joins up. That's what Sisko was there to do. The Federation is entitled to make a 'sales pitch', as it were.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think maybe the legitimate debate we could draw out of this is the same one that's held about American culture and language, and their growing influence worldwide (to the detriment, in some eyes, of the native culture). That may be what Eddington's comment was meant to evoke.

As for the grievances of the Maquis...well, I'd say they had a legitimate grievance with the governments of the Federation and Cardassia for using them as chips in a political poker game. However, I think the tactics the Maquis used went over the line, especially when they decided poisoning an entire planet of Cardassians was an acceptable way of dealing with the fact that those people had settled in territory that was formerly theirs. Just like I said when Sisko did that, you just cannot go after noncombatants and children that way and expect to keep your moral high ground.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for the grievances of the Maquis...well, I'd say they had a legitimate grievance with the governments of the Federation and Cardassia for using them as chips in a political poker game.

Which was the Maquis' idea in the first place ("Journey's End", TNG).