In hindsight do you wish TNG had ended with "All Good Things"?

[JesterFace]

Why not make it anyway for the people who do want to see it? Why is wishing it wasn't made seemingly better than criticizing it?

Basically it comes down to a wise sentence from Futurama:

You've watched it, you can't unwatch it!

Maybe I or some one else would be just a little bit happier if we could unwatch some things...

 

[JWPlatt]

Retcon is an effective tool for unwatching.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Oh, and there's this Nexus thingy that we're only just learning about now but Guinan knew about the whole time and never told Picard, despite their long and trusted friendship, and the effect the Nexus had on her life.

Everybody has their secrets; someone as presumably long-lived as Guinan would have many, even from someone she's as close to as Picard. I buy it completely and the scene with Guinan and Picard in her quarters is wonderful, as Guinan scenes always are.

It's Soran's relationship with the Nexus that is stretched. Presumably he and Guinan and all the other El Aurians would have ended up in the Nexus, otherwise beaming them away would have never left any traces in the Nexus itself. Hell, Kirk is even snatched off a ship right into the Nexus. The precedent's there to just fly something right into the Nexus and get snatched away, and everybody's happy; so Soran not doing that and deciding to be a genocidal bastard instead makes him out to be a dummy, and Malcolm McDowell should never play a dummy.

 

[Dukhat]

So what's the difference between not making the movie, to which Dukhat answers in the affirmative, and simply not watching it? Why not make it anyway for the people who do want to see it? Why is wishing it wasn't made seemingly better than criticizing it?

Hold on there. I didn't say that films shouldn't have been made. I just answered Warped9's question: Had I known the outcome of the actual four films, would I have wanted them to be made?

If they wanted to make a TNG film after the show ended, I wouldn't have had any particular issue with that. While I think TNG ended just fine with AGT, having a feature film showing where our heroes ultimately end up in their lives would have been great, and would have provided actual closure to TNG (instead of a Picard/Kirk buddy movie.) But really, that's all they should have done. As was shown, this cast really wasn't meant to carry a movie series.

Everybody has their secrets; someone as presumably long-lived as Guinan would have many, even from someone she's as close to as Picard.

The thing is though, the Nexus isn't that much of a secret.

Picard: "So tell me how you came across these unique abilities you have but that other members of your race don't have."

Guinan (Answer A): "I was inside a spacial anomaly for a few seconds, but to me it was a lifetime and it was really awesome."

Guinan (Answer B): "If I told you I'd have to kill you."


Why would Answer A have been such a hard thing for Guinan to admit?

 

[Jonesy]

Hiring directors of commercials (because they make nice commercials), newbie directors (because they have a "fresh" point of view), and directors who don't know the franchise (because they are not blinded by being too too close) is something of a trope for studios. I don't understand the thinking.

But one thing I understand least of all is why anyone would choose to not try, meaning they'd rather have no movie at all than give it a chance.

Well, but an argument can be made that with a guy like Nicholas Meyer. He had no previous experience with the franchise. The thing is, he at least turned in a decent movie before being courted to direct.

I think the key is finding a talented director who very clearly is excited by the script that he/she is being handed to work with. But that is easier said than done. I can't see anyone being excited with the scripts to INS or Nemesis.

 

[BillJ]

I think the key is finding a talented director who very clearly is excited by the script that he/she is being handed to work with. But that is easier said than done. I can't see anyone being excited with the scripts to INS or Nemesis.

Easier said than done because in most films, the director is the one driving the creative process. During the Berman films, I get the idea that the director was handed a script and told to film it. It was still very much the TV process with bigger budgets.

 

[Phantom]

I'm not a big fan of "revisionist history," especially where Star Trek is concerned (which is why I usually hate prequels done after the fact, like ENT.) And these movies had revisionist history in spades.

GEN: Guess what? We find out that, instead of Kirk dying normally in the course of time, he was actually whisked away to the 24th century where he cooks eggs, meets Picard, pines over some woman we've never heard of before, and dies in the most contrived way possible. Oh, and there's this Nexus thingy that we're only just learning about now but Guinan knew about the whole time and never told Picard, despite their long and trusted friendship, and the effect the Nexus had on her life.

FC: Guess what? We find out that the Borg are now controlled by some individual, horny queen bee, even though Picard should have known this when he was Locutus, never mind that we've never seen this queen before. So instead of actions dictated on pure logic, the Borg now do what queen bee wants. And guess what else? We find out that Zefram Cochrane, inventor of the human warp drive, was really just some old drunk asshole in some hick town who built warp drive to get rich and fuck girls. Which was the complete opposite of how he was portrayed in TOS.

INS: Guess what? Not exactly revisionist history per se, but we find out that the Enterprise crew have no problems disobeying the direct orders of Starfleet Command and making a mini-insurrection to save a few people because a planet that isn't even theirs is being stolen to use to help save untold billions of people instead of finding a more logical way to deal with the problem.

NEM: Guess what? We learn all kinds of shit we never knew before! All this time Picard had a clone! But we aren't actually sure why. For the last several hundred years, Romulus's sister planet was inhabited by evil space vampires! Even though this is the first time they're ever mentioned or seen despite seeing Romulans many times in TOS and TNG. Data has yet another brother! Even though we don't know how it came into Shinzon's possession. Would Dr. Soong really be that careless? We learn that Picard has always wanted to be like Mario Andretti! Even though Picard as depicted in TNG would never have been interested in that, especially considering the fact that ground vehicle usage is a thing of the past.

TFF: Guess what? Spock has a half-brother that he knew about all along but never told anyone! (Sorry, it was too good to pass up.)

Sorry, none of that is "revisionist history". It's learning new things we never knew before. That is why we keep watching these things after all.

The closest you come to a legitimate claim on "revisionism" would be Cochrane. But it's just as easy to argue that "Metamorphosis" Cochrane represents him as the man he became after First Contact w/the Vulcans.

 

[JesterFace]

In hindsight season 7 was weak(er) overall, TNG could have ended with 'Ship In A Bottle' from season 6 when Barclay says: "Computer, end program."

 

[DonIago]

That would have been a pretty ballsy (and IMO funny) way to end the series.

 

[Dukhat]

Sorry, none of that is "revisionist history". It's learning new things we never knew before. That is why we keep watching these things after all.

Call it what you want. There's a huge difference between making things up out of thin air that we should have logically already known about just to suit the plot of some dumb movie and learning new things we never knew before. And even though I used the term "revisionist history," everyone knew what I meant, as I'm sure you did too.

The closest you come to a legitimate claim on "revisionism" would be Cochrane. But it's just as easy to argue that "Metamorphosis" Cochrane represents him as the man he became after First Contact w/the Vulcans.

Obviously that was the intent when they decided to make FC. But just because that was their intent doesn't mean that it's convincing to me.

 

[Karzak]

Julianna Tainer, Dr. Soong's ex-wife, revealed to Data that there were at least three or four Soong-type android prototypes (before Lore and Data) in "Inheritance," so the appearance/revelation of B-4 in the film is not altogether out of nowhere nor is it anywhere near "revisionist."

 

[Dukhat]

Julianna Tainer, Dr. Soong's ex-wife, revealed to Data that there were at least three or four Soong-type android prototypes (before Lore and Data) in "Inheritance," so the appearance/revelation of B-4 in the film is not altogether out of nowhere nor is it anywhere near "revisionist."

But we didn't know that they looked exactly like Data. Even as far back as "Datalore" it was implied that Data and Lore were two of a kind. "Soong-type" androids don't necessarily have to look alike, as Tainer is proof of that.

But I agree that the existence of B-4 isn't necessarily "revisionist" (although I'm pretty sure that if there had been no mention of other prototypes, that wouldn't have stopped them from having the B-4 character in the film.)

 

[Karzak]

I don't know.

I somehow doubt that Soong made any other androids not in his likeness. I mean, it's possible, yes. But given that both Lore, Data and B-4 all resembled him it's certainly likely that they all were created in Soong's image before he made the Julianna android. Dialogue in "Inheritence" certainly could support that precise interpretation:

FADE IN:

A8 INT. A CORRIDOR

as Data and Juliana make their way down it.

JULIANA
-- I wanted to make you female,
but your father insisted on a son.
We argued about it endlessly,
right up until we were ready to
assemble you.

DATA
(intrigued)
How did you decide?

She smiles as she remembers.

JULIANA
Well, Noonian walked in holding
your head in his hand and --
innocent as you please -- said it
was up to me. Of course he knew
perfectly well what he was
doing... once again, he'd made it
in his own image -- what was I to
say?​

15 CONTINUED:

JULIANA
(continuing)
Data... can I ask you something?

DATA
Of course.

JULIANA
Do you think you'll ever try to
create an android again?

DATA
Perhaps. I created Lal because I
wished to procreate. Despite what
happened to her, I still have that
wish.

JULIANA
But... how do you know the same
thing won't happen? Creating a
stable positronic matrix is very
tricky -- your Father lost several
prototypes before Lore.

Data reacts to this information.

DATA
I was not aware that he created
any androids before my brother.

JULIANA
There were three of them... they
were like children to us... losing
them was very painful. When
Noonian decided to try again, I
was very much against it. I
didn't think we had the right to
bring a life into the world that
had so little chance of surviving.

 

[Dukhat]

Of course he knew

perfectly well what he was
doing... once again, he'd made it
in his own image -- what was I to
say?​

​

I'm pretty sure "once again" is referring only to Lore when she states that Soong made Data in his own image, since Data was built immediately after Lore was found to be dysfunctional, since the mention of other prototypes comes later:

Creating a
stable positronic matrix is very
tricky -- your Father lost several
prototypes before Lore.

Data reacts to this information.

DATA
I was not aware that he created
any androids before my brother.

JULIANA
There were three of them... they
were like children to us... losing
them was very painful.

And there is no indication here that the other three prototypes looked like Soong/Data. But I'm not really arguing this. Did they look like Data? Probably. And thanks to Nemesis, we know that at least one of those three did...maybe. The real question is why the prototype's name is "B-4." The implication is that we're meant to think that Soong built him "before" Data. But we all know that Soong built Lore before Data...but Lore is never mentioned in Nemesis. So it appears that B-4 was not one of the three prototypes Tainer mentioned, but yet another android between Lore and Data. That's the "revisionism" I'm talking about.

 

[BillJ]

The real question is why the prototype's name is "B-4." The implication is that we're meant to think that Soong built him "before" Data. But we all know that Soong built Lore before Data. That's the "revisionism" I'm talking about.

I don't see the problem? Soong built multiple fully functioning androids without any failures? But, the B4 name never made any sense, on any level.

 

[Dukhat]

But, the B4 name never made any sense, on any level.

It makes sense if there were only two androids: Data, and the android that came "before" Data. That, IMHO, was the whole point of naming the thing B-4. And that's exactly what a moviegoer who had never seen TNG would assume.

 

[Phantom]

In hindsight season 7 was weak(er) overall, TNG could have ended with 'Ship In A Bottle' from season 6 when Barclay says: "Computer, end program."

That would have been a pretty ballsy (and IMO funny) way to end the series.

I can't agree, because I think "Preemptive Strike" is such an important episode both as a character piece and as a significant signpost episode for the series' meta-timeline.

Sorry, none of that is "revisionist history". It's learning new things we never knew before. That is why we keep watching these things after all.

Call it what you want. There's a huge difference between making things up out of thin air that we should have logically already known about just to suit the plot of some dumb movie and learning new things we never knew before. And even though I used the term "revisionist history," everyone knew what I meant, as I'm sure you did too.

Probably, but I'm disagreeing with your interpretation and your reaction. No show EVER tells you everything about a character or story all at the first introduction because:

a) that would require basically a ginormous "info dump"/exposition scene that would be about as dramatic as History 101 taught by Professor Binns.

and

b) it would leave no room for character growth and development if everything we ever needed to know as set in stone the first time they appeared. No producer is going to ham-string writers in such a fashion.

Julianna Tainer, Dr. Soong's ex-wife, revealed to Data that there were at least three or four Soong-type android prototypes (before Lore and Data) in "Inheritance," so the appearance/revelation of B-4 in the film is not altogether out of nowhere nor is it anywhere near "revisionist."

But we didn't know that they looked exactly like Data.

So what? We "didn't know" that they in fact didn't look different from Data either.

This isn't even a mole-hill...it's an ant-hill that you're trying to turn into a mountain.

 

[Dukhat]

I stand by what I wrote. If you don't like it that's your problem.

 

[DonIago]

In hindsight season 7 was weak(er) overall, TNG could have ended with 'Ship In A Bottle' from season 6 when Barclay says: "Computer, end program."

That would have been a pretty ballsy (and IMO funny) way to end the series.

I can't agree, because I think "Preemptive Strike" is such an important episode both as a character piece and as a significant signpost episode for the series' meta-timeline.

I said ballsy and funny...I didn't say it would be an improvement.

 

[JWPlatt]

No show EVER tells you everything about a character or story all at the first introduction because: ... b) it would leave no room for character growth and development if everything we ever needed to know as set in stone the first time they appeared...

Have an entire season devoted to a flashback to cover the character's year in Kindergarten. Because all we need to know, the character learned in Kindergarten.