In Defense of Janeway as a Captain

[Guy Gardener]

Well that's the first season of Farscape.they kept asking for maps because they didn't know where they were or how to get to anyones homeplanet.

Just weird.

I had to wonder if they were all morons?

 

[zar]

As it is, that line makes it seem like they'd never be able to replenish any lost supplies even if they went off to trade with someone. It should have been tweaked to include the possibility of renewal instead of making it so final.

No, it doesn't make it seem like that. No, it isn't final. And I just finished explaining why it shouldn't have been tweaked.

Should this line have been changed as well?

JANEWAY: If you destroy the Array, we'll have no way to get home.

(Yes, that was an actual line)

Isn't this an "obvious flaw"? Did it not lock the writers into never getting them home?

No, obviously, it didn't. And if Janeway had said something that wasn't "so final", it would have defeated the whole purpose of the line. Same applies to the line about torpedoes.

If the crew of VOY has no idea where they are relative to Earth (truly unknown space) then their best hope is to rely on the DQ residents for information and hope that if they return them to their homes they'll earn the gratitude of advanced enough civilizations that they'll know how to get home and where they are.

Basically, remove Earth from the equation entirely until later on in the show. And by then they'd have gotten involved in local affairs too much to just turn tail and run away. Give the show another important plot aside from "Go Home".

Weren't you complaining earlier that being unable to get home made the crew look incompetent? And now you suggest this? Every other time a ship was thrown off course, they were able to figure out where they were in relation to where they came from. Hell, WE in the 21st century know where we are in relation to other galaxies millions of light-years away. If the Voyager crew couldn't have whipped out their subspace telescopes and gotten their bearings, they would have looked like complete idiots.

 

[indolover]

It depends what one means by bad Captain. Picard (and incidentally Sisko) is my favourite captain, but if he has one flaw it is that he is sometimes too ethical (IMO it's a strength and a weakness in him). His principal strength is his reasoning ability and wisdom, which is key in resolving most problems the Enterprise got into.

Janeway similarly was sometimes too ethical. Even though Starfleet procedures are to render assistance when one can, she would often do this to the detriment of her crew (frankly, who cared if the Ocampa got massacred, why strand yourself to protect strangers?) That said, her strengths were that she was an intelligent woman (well, all of the captains were smart people), and she was like a second mother to the crew.

 

[Anwar]

Like Guy said, it worked in Farscape not having anyone know how to get to Earth.

I WOULD have changed that line, frankly:

Janeway: If you destroy the Array, we may never get home.

There.

Weren't you complaining earlier that being unable to get home made the crew look incompetent?

Being unable to get back the way they came out in the first place, like those other guys did? Well, you DID point out that it was always due to someone else that got those guys back home so I may reconsider.

If the Voyager crew couldn't have whipped out their subspace telescopes and gotten their bearings, they would have looked like complete idiots.

Tell that to Crichton. But otherwise, if they'd come up with some plot device like "Something in this area of the Galaxy is messing up long-range telescopes." or "We're in a big Nebula that long-range scanners couldn't see inside of from Earth and we can't see out of it. The edge of the nebula is at least 10,000 LY away and there are hundreds of Nebula like this all over the Galaxy. We could be anywhere."

If it's to drive the plot, folks would go "What the Hell, as long as it entertains."

 

[Anwar]

But knowing where they are gives them a clear idea of what they are up against...if they have no clue...they might as well find a near by planet and settle down...who wonders unknown space in the hopes of finding their way? It is a waste of energy and resources...plus they have the tech to figure this out(Where they are in space)...even before VOY...unless they just vanished into a unknown dimension.

That's why they'd have a bunch of various DQ folks as crew members, to let them know there are advanced civilizations somewhere they should seek out for help.

 

[Jetfire]

But knowing where they are gives them a clear idea of what they are up against...if they have no clue...they might as well find a near by planet and settle down...who wonders unknown space in the hopes of finding their way? It is a waste of energy and resources...plus they have the tech to figure this out(Where they are in space)...even before VOY...unless they just vanished into a unknown dimension.

That's why they'd have a bunch of various DQ folks as crew members, to let them know there are advanced civilizations somewhere they should seek out for help.

I would have like to have seen some of the more interesting DQ races as part of the crew...but I truly believe the Borg should have been involved from the get go. Imagine if they found a drone...Seven Of Nine held either by the Ocampa or by the Caretaker? By the way Jeri Ryan was acting when VOY started.

 

[zar]

Like Guy said, it worked in Farscape not having anyone know how to get to Earth.

Like Guy said, they all looked like morons.

I WOULD have changed that line, frankly:

Janeway: If you destroy the Array, we may never get home.

There.

if they'd come up with some plot device like "Something in this area of the Galaxy is messing up long-range telescopes." or "We're in a big Nebula that long-range scanners couldn't see inside of from Earth and we can't see out of it. The edge of the nebula is at least 10,000 LY away and there are hundreds of Nebula like this all over the Galaxy. We could be anywhere."

If it's to drive the plot, folks would go "What the Hell, as long as it entertains."

Are they also encased in a quadrant-spanning Dyson sphere? Because the only way they wouldn't be able to figure out where they are is if their actual view is blocked. So far your ideas for "fixing" VOY's premise would have only made it more limiting, whether it was in the first place or not, and harder to swallow.

Knowing which direction to go is half the battle. Actually, no. A lot less than half. They still need a lot of help to get the ship to cross the distance and survive the trip.

 

[Anwar]

If they know how to go back to Earth, then they have no reason to stay in one are and flesh out their aliens beyond "aliens of the week", no reason to get involved in local affairs, nothing.

If they don't know, and if more of the crew were actual people FROM these civilizations then there's plenty of connection right from the get go and better methods of fleshing them out and creating more powerful adversaries.

Do this for two or three seasons before revealing where they are in relation to Earth, then cook up some excuse to stay a bit longer (Borg invasion or the Borg/8472 war) and then have them return to Earth in Season 4 or 5 with some wormhole they find, or the Female Caretaker agrees to send them back, or they find a super-FTL engine. Then they do a homecoming story and go back as part of a Federation delegation for the rest of the series and finish off the Borg/8472 storyline in the finale.

There, that sounds more interesting than just one ship bumming around one place to another not doing anything of importance.

 

[zar]

Do this for two or three seasons before revealing where they are in relation to Earth, then cook up some excuse to stay a bit longer

Or just do that in season one, avoiding the contrived we-are-blind plot.

I don't know why you think they'd've had to be made physically incapable of heading home in order to want to make a difference where they are.

And like I said, knowing which direction to go is hardly enough. It was already a heck of a long-shot that they'd ever make it back in their lifetimes, so they could have easily resigned to the idea that they weren't going to, and settled in.

 

[Anwar]

Not knowing how to get home would be the driving force for going to advanced civilizations and getting involved in local affairs. Without that, they may as well just point the ship at Earth and all go into stasis for 75 years.

Also, having more DQ residents in the cast would give them actual personal connections to these worlds, whereas all being from the Alpha Quadrant meant there was no connection.

 

[Jetfire]

Doesn't the ship need maintenance and more resources? I could be wrong but they can't just point it at Earth and be done with it for a 75 year journey???

 

[zar]

Not knowing how to get home would be the driving force for going to advanced civilizations and getting involved in local affairs. Without that, they may as well just point the ship at Earth and all go into stasis for 75 years.

They don't know how to get home. They only know which way it is. Putting themselves to sleep for 75 years isn't the solution they want, because then everything they knew would be gone by then. The desire to get there in less time is all the motivation they need to go ask advanced civilizations for help.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As long as they were in the milky way galaxy because of everything we have seen before, they would know how to get home. Even if they were in another galaxy they would know how to get home they just wouldn't be able to survive the trip through the void between galaxies (no natural resources nor trading partners) even if they could live that long.

Pilot didn't know how to get to the Luxan homeworld, or any of the other prisoners on Moyas' Home Worlds either. Planets within weeks to months travel of were they were hiding in the unknown territories.

It's like a child who ewandered off two streets over and can't find their way back.

 

[zar]

Doesn't the ship need maintenance and more resources? I could be wrong but they can't just point it at Earth and be done with it for a 75 year journey???

Doc could be a janitor.

Forever.

 

[Jetfire]

Doesn't the ship need maintenance and more resources? I could be wrong but they can't just point it at Earth and be done with it for a 75 year journey???

Doc could be a janitor.

Forever.

The poor bastard.

 

[Anwar]

As long as they were in the milky way galaxy because of everything we have seen before, they would know how to get home. Even if they were in another galaxy they would know how to get home they just wouldn't be able to survive the trip through the void between galaxies (no natural resources nor trading partners) even if they could live that long.

Pilot didn't know how to get to the Luxan homeworld, or any of the other prisoners on Moyas' Home Worlds either. Planets within weeks to months travel of were they were hiding in the unknown territories.

It's like a child who ewandered off two streets over and can't find their way back.

So then, why did no one ever bring this up during the show?

Easy answer: the audience didn't care to think it out, and the same would be for VOY if they used the same "We don't know how to get home" excuse.

The desire to get there in less time is all the motivation they need to go ask advanced civilizations for help.

Then why did the audience complain when VOY stayed in one area for more than one episode and encounter the same aliens more than once? If they have justifications for doing so, there shouldn't be complaints like this.

Just keep ramming it down the audience's throats that "Look morons, they can't go home on their own and are going to stick around to figure out how. We're going to keep using these same guys for a while to STFU."

They need reasons to get involved in local affairs and basically "Go native" in the area, with returning to Earth being less of a concern as the show goes on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Pilot failed his exams and wasn't allowed a ship of his own because he sucked. It was on the black ops peacekeepers who wanted a pliable and dirty pilot who had a broken moral compass. His job was to do what he was told while they knocked up moya.

They were constant looking for maps in season one.

None of them were astronavigators.

Do you know who Arnold J Rimmer is?

(the J is for judas.)

"I am a Fish"

Rimmer failed his astronavigation exam 13 times.

Janeways crew was smart. They knew how to get home.

Seven of Nine replotted the course and shaved off 3 years.

They were half way home by that point.

If some one as smart as she had been there in the beginning maybe they could have shaved off 3 years for the for half of the journey too?

 

[stj]

I don't. I think the writers needed to work harder to make the premise work rather than throwing it on the back-burner.

The idea that Starfleet ways may not work in the environment they were currently working should've been played up more. It's not abandoning your principles when you admit that they may not have evolved with the current scenario in mind.

I'm not quite sure you know what the premise was. They had a ship half full of people who would go to jail if they got home quick, which meant that it was perfectly sensible for them to be leisurely and not to be all mopey all the time about not being back home. So Janeway would get to be captain without any bosses at hand and that would ramp up the stakes. I think that was what the premise was.

With replicators, a grim survivalist drama is just stupid, and "good writing" wasn't going to change that.

The idea that the Delta Quadrant was somehow a different environment is also stupid. It's not like a different continent that has a different climate and different evolutionary history. Each and every planet would be equally unique, but that applies in the Alpha Quadrant as well.

As for the notion that Voyager was somehow supposed to be about how idealism is all very nice but not really practical, that is something that is read into the show. It's not the premise. I don't think there's any truth to the idea and no amount of "good writing" would have ever made it truthful. Obviously many people agree that's what they wanted to see. There problem is that bitching because it wasn't the show they wanted to see is silly.

On the other hand, claiming that Voyager isn't repeatedly criticized (and fans actually taunted) for things other series have done; for doing some things and for not doing mmore of the same things simultaneously; for things that have been repeatedly refuted as not even in the show...well, this suggests people saying this haven't been around very long.

It's funny that so many times that Chakotay ended up being the Starfleet 'voice of reason' when Janeway got a wild hair about something.

What's funny is that I don't remember "so many" times. When people can't even correctly describe the show, how can we believe they can identify bad writing?

 

[zar]

So then, why did no one ever bring this up during the show?

Guy brought it up just now, and I, for one, never brought it up because I never watched it. Making comparisons between two different audiences in an attempt to claim hypocrisy of individuals within one of them is a sign of desperation.

If they have justifications for doing so, there shouldn't be complaints like this.

Funny... I thought you said we were always going to complain "no matter the reasoning"?

On the other hand, claiming that Voyager isn't repeatedly criticized (and fans actually taunted) for things other series have done; for doing some things and for not doing mmore of the same things simultaneously; for things that have been repeatedly refuted as not even in the show...well, this suggests people saying this haven't been around very long.

Nobody claimed it hadn't been. The problem is when a certain someone immediately assumes that everyone who criticizes VOY is of the same group mind that apparently so oppressed him in the past.

 

[Anwar]

So then, why did no one ever bring this up during the show?

Guy brought it up just now, and I, for one, never brought it up because I never watched it. Making comparisons between two different audiences in an attempt to claim hypocrisy of individuals within one of them is a sign of desperation.

So you'd dislike Farscape if you ever did see it, for that reason?

If they have justifications for doing so, there shouldn't be complaints like this.

Funny... I thought you said we were always going to complain "no matter the reasoning"?

Yes, even if there are in-show justifications.