In Defense of Janeway as a Captain

[Anwar]

I brought up an idea of what could have been done to make Janeway more important from the start, not much different from Sisko's own destiny, and you said that it still wasn't anything. You deny this now?

BillJ brought up the Borg stories he thinks are good, I brought up what the real opinion is of the VOY and ENT Borg stories. And the one Borg story that (I personally) thought was good but he did not include.

 

[starlitegirl]

I brought up an idea of what could have been done to make Janeway more important from the start, not much different from Sisko's own destiny, and you said that it still wasn't anything. You deny this now?

BillJ brought up the Borg stories he thinks are good, I brought up what the real opinion is of the VOY and ENT Borg stories. And the one Borg story that (I personally) thought was good but he did not include.

I love all the Borg episodes. Even when the Queen plays psychologist because that in and of itself is scary!

 

[zar]

Scroll up a bit. It was BillJ. This is why it is best to use the quote feature rather than cut and paste. In a thread like this, things get very confusing.

That's not what I meant, I know he quoted me and BillJ, but then he immediately went on a tangent about complaints that neither I or BillJ actually made. Normally he stays on track for a while before heading down that path, but this time he went there straight away.

I brought up an idea of what could have been done to make Janeway more important from the start, not much different from Sisko's own destiny, and you said that it still wasn't anything. You deny this now?

What are you talking about? Let me refresh your memory:


BillJ pointed out the difference between concept and execution.

You said that if we think it could be executed better then we should give an example of better execution.

Then you claimed that you had done this yourself with your "Janeway the Chosen One" idea.

But you hadn't, because that was just a concept, not an execution. I said if a talented writer actually did execute that, it may have worked.

Then, out of nowhere, you say "So it's okay for Sisko to be some prophecy guy, but not Janeway?" I never said anything of the sort.

 

[Anwar]

Both are the same concept: Sisko is the Emissary and (hypothetically) Janeway the One to end the Borg. Yet you made no statement about Sisko's the Emissary being merely a concept in need of proper execution.

 

[zar]

... Because that concept had a 7 year execution, as opposed to being merely posted on a forum.

 

[starlitegirl]

That's not what I meant, I know he quoted me and BillJ, but then he immediately went on a tangent about complaints that neither I or BillJ actually made. Normally he stays on track for a while before heading down that path, but this time he went there straight away.

Ah. Sadly, I now understand why I have not been able to follow most of this discussion.

Data is the perfect avatar for you. I can follow your logic.

 

[Anwar]

... Because that concept had a 7 year execution, as opposed to being merely posted on a forum.

But at its core, is the base idea any better or worse than Sisko's being a Holy Icon to the Bajorans? Answer the question directly.

 

[BillJ]

... Because that concept had a 7 year execution, as opposed to being merely posted on a forum.

But at its core, is the base idea any better or worse than Sisko's being a Holy Icon to the Bajorans? Answer the question directly.

It's not any better or worse because it is a snippet of a thought and nothing more.

You definitely seem to have a persecution complex in regards to Voyager. I thought the basic idea was a neat riff on the Lost in Space concept. But the execution was really rough in places and it hurt the show. That and the fact they simply abandoned part of the premise pretty much from the get-go.

 

[Anwar]

You definitely seem to have a persecution complex in regards to Voyager.

It's the single most bashed Trek series in existence, constantly mocked and ridiculed, and the fans of said series are ostracized even by other Trek fans because they enjoyed the show.

I thought the basic idea was a neat riff on the Lost in Space concept. But the execution was really rough in places and it hurt the show. That and the fact they simply abandoned part of the premise pretty much from the get-go.

Frankly, I had problems with the premise and think it needed more work from day one.

 

[zar]

Data is the perfect avatar for you.

That's Lore actually, from Descent.

You definitely seem to have a persecution complex in regards to Voyager.

It's the single most bashed Trek series in existence, constantly mocked and ridiculed, and the fans of said series are ostracized even by other Trek fans because they enjoyed the show.

"Single most" is redundant, and basic process of elimination necessitates that one of the series must be the most bashed.

Ostracized? Get real. You conjure up gross misinterpretations of what people say to convince yourself that they hate VOY to some ridiculous exaggerated degree, and that's exactly what a persecution complex is. Here's a perfect example:

I came to think that they were all full of it and had no idea what "good execution" really meant and that they just were being polite in saying "I hate everything in this show".

The majority of what you respond to are delusion-spawned foes that don't actually exist.

 

[BillJ]

Frankly, I had problems with the premise and think it needed more work from day one.

I don't. I think the writers needed to work harder to make the premise work rather than throwing it on the back-burner.

The idea that Starfleet ways may not work in the environment they were currently working should've been played up more. It's not abandoning your principles when you admit that they may not have evolved with the current scenario in mind.

It's funny that so many times that Chakotay ended up being the Starfleet 'voice of reason' when Janeway got a wild hair about something.

But that's neither here nor there as the show is in the can and will most likely never be revisited on TV or in movies.

Sometimes Voyager was good, sometimes it was bad. But it was never dull, which is the highest praise I can give it (and being dull is something Modern Trek in general got to be quite good at).

 

[Saquist]

Season 6 and 7 were dull.
That Seven and Doctor combinations and Photons be free crap was obviously budget saving measures.

 

[Jetfire]

S6 wasn't dull IMO...but S7 was a mixed bag.

 

[BillJ]

Season 6 and 7 were dull.
That Seven and Doctor combinations and Photons be free crap was obviously budget saving measures.

Dumb to be sure, never dull.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I LOVED IT ALL.

 

[Jetfire]

My only wish is that the Janeway, The Doctor & Seven Of Nine dynamic had been there from the start and Chakotay was thrown from an airlock.

 

[Anwar]

I don't. I think the writers needed to work harder to make the premise work rather than throwing it on the back-burner.

That's not what I meant, what I mean is that they needed more time to look on what they had thought up and seen the obvious flaws in need of fixing:

1) That whole "we can never make more torpedoes and shuttles" line. I'm sorry but that NEVER made any sense, and if it had been changed to "We can make more, but it'll be hard" it would've been better.

2) The Maquis, they just weren't right for what the show needed. Either they should have been generic space pirates, or various DQ inhabitants that the Caretaker was holding (each with their own agenda), or Romulans.

3) The Delta Quadrant, if you're going to go out into the unknown it should BE the unknown. As in unknown space, not some place everyone was aware of.

These are things off the top of my head that should have been dealt with better in the conceptual stages of the show.

 

[zar]

1) That whole "we can never make more torpedoes and shuttles" line. I'm sorry but that NEVER made any sense, and if it had been changed to "We can make more, but it'll be hard" it would've been better.

If the line was changed to that, it would have sounded forced and bizarre. If your car breaks down, you don't say "I can get home now, but it will be hard." You say, "Damn, now I have no way home," even though you don't literally believe you'll be stranded there for the rest of your life.

The problem wasn't the fact that the premise involved lack of restocking supplies at starbases. It was the fact that they so quickly abandoned the concept, forcing us to use our imagination to reconcile them always being fully stocked rather than making it part of the story onscreen.

2) The Maquis, they just weren't right for what the show needed. Either they should have been generic space pirates, or various DQ inhabitants that the Caretaker was holding (each with their own agenda), or Romulans.

Romulans could've worked, but choosing to use the Maquis was hardly an "obvious flaw", as you put it. On the other hand, what you suggest as a replacement has an obvious flaw: Why in the world would an entire crew worth of random DQ residents want to travel with strangers for 7 years to a home that isn't theirs?

3) The Delta Quadrant, if you're going to go out into the unknown it should BE the unknown. As in unknown space, not some place everyone was aware of.

What are you talking about? Since the Delta Quadrant has a name, it doesn't count as "unknown space"?

 

[Anwar]

1) But VOY was a starship, not some merchant freighter. They had information on the torpedoes and shuttle designs in the computers, they had trained engineers, they had all they needed to build those things except the exact materials.

As it is, that line makes it seem like they'd never be able to replenish any lost supplies even if they went off to trade with someone. It should have been tweaked to include the possibility of renewal instead of making it so final.

I mean really, making new torpedoes and fixing shuttles isn't really comparable to damage to the Warp Core.

2) & 3)

If the crew of VOY has no idea where they are relative to Earth (truly unknown space) then their best hope is to rely on the DQ residents for information and hope that if they return them to their homes they'll earn the gratitude of advanced enough civilizations that they'll know how to get home and where they are.

Basically, remove Earth from the equation entirely until later on in the show. And by then they'd have gotten involved in local affairs too much to just turn tail and run away. Give the show another important plot aside from "Go Home".

 

[Jetfire]

But knowing where they are gives them a clear idea of what they are up against...if they have no clue...they might as well find a near by planet and settle down...who wonders unknown space in the hopes of finding their way? It is a waste of energy and resources...plus they have the tech to figure this out(Where they are in space)...even before VOY...unless they just vanished into a unknown dimension.