Impulse Drive, Therories on how it works?

[Henoch]

Why continue to deny Occam's Razor?

 

[Mytran]

Plus there's a reference to the shuttle's "pods" not responding, when Kirk and Spock are trying to avoid the energy being. In TOS the term "pod" almost exclusively refers to the nacelles, a M/AM FTL system

 

[Timo]

What could have come along to make these ships obsolete in 2018? Some sort of efficient high speed propulsion (still STL) such as impulse (gravity) drive. Later, add in a Gravity Elimination Field (Interial Dampening Field), then much higher accelerations are possible and maybe early FLT travel (no mass means no Einstein and Newton limitations.)

Since Khan's pre-2018 ship did go interstellar, I'd say high acceleration is an excellent thing to introduce at that juncture: a DY-100 would have had a magical drive already, one that defies the rocket equation somehow by allowing the ship to sail to the stars with reasonable propellant tanks, but this could still mean "years" of insystem travel if the accelerations allowed by the magical tech were low.

How Khan's ship (and make no mistake, it wasn't Khan's alone, or the heroes would have realized who they were facing right away) defied the rocket equation is unknown, but since he did have deck gravity, the assumption that AG had something to do with his propulsion as well is IMHO a convenient one.

n Metamorphosis, the Enterprise was sensor sweeping for antimatter residual when searching for the shuttlecraft because it must have a M/AM reactor/engine...

The interesting thing there is that there was no such residue. Why not? Presumably, only a damaged or destroyed shuttle would leave a trail or cloud of antimatter residue, since Kirk's well-working one left nothing. Which is consistent with there being no such thing as an antimatter trail (or even a generic shuttlecraft trail) elsewhere in Trek. And with the fact that the dialogue quoted ends with the conclusion that the shuttle must be fine, or at least not wrecked, apparently because no antimatter residue was detected.

Whether this can be taken to mean that the shuttle has antimatter aboard at all flight modes is a further leap of faith for us to make. Might be antimatter is easily generated in catastrophes. But there's fairly little reason for us to insist that shuttles would lack onboard antimatter supplies, even if their power (yes, power, not propulsion) is described as "ion".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

The interesting thing there is that there was no such residue.

Fact check: There was a residue trail as implied by the "particle" dialog:

SULU: Steady. No, Mister Scott, bearing three ten mark thirty five just cleared. No antimatter residue.
SCOTT: All scanners, spherical sweep. Range, maximum. They'll have to pick it up.
UHURA: If the shuttlecraft powered away, Mister Scott, but if it were just towed?
SCOTT: There'd still be traces of residual matter floating around, Lieutenant.
SULU: Bearing two ten mark forty. Strong particle concentration. We're on it, Mister Scott.​

My read: E was scanning for antimatter residue which are particles. They find a strong particle concentration. This was due to the strong resistance Spock applied when the Space Cloud first grabbed the shuttle:

SPOCK: Helm does not answer, Captain.
KIRK: Neither do the pods. Communications are dead. Building overload. Cut all power relays.
SPOCK: Cut, Captain.​

While resisting the initial pull of the Space Cloud, the shuttle was blowing out antimatter residue particles leaving a trail on its new heading. Then the shuttle cuts power (which stops the antimatter residue particles) and lets it get dragged off.

KIRK: You already know as much as we do, Miss Hedford. Whatever that thing is outside, it's yanked us off course from the Enterprise.
SPOCK: Now on course nine eight mark one two, heading directly toward Gamma Canaris region.
​

On the E, it detects the new course and shortly looses the trail of particles because the shuttle cut off power to the engines:

SULU: Course laid in, sir. Particle density decreasing. Gone, sir. No readings.
SCOTT: Steady as she goes, Mister Sulu.
UHURA: What do you think it means, Mister Scott?
SCOTT: The shuttlecraft was on schedule until it was shy five hours of rendezvous. Then something happened.
UHURA: Well, I'd feel a lot better if it were a little more definite.
SCOTT: It didn't wreck. There was no debris. There's no trace of expelled internal atmosphere, no residual radioactivity. Ah, it's... Something took over. Tractor beams maybe. Something. They dragged it away on the heading we're now on.
UHURA: If there are no further traces, how are we going to follow them?
SCOTT: We stay on this course, see what comes up.​

 

[Ronald Held]

Good question as to how long antiDeuterium can last in interstellar space before being annihilated.

 

[Henoch]

Space is mostly empty, so, it may take a while to fully annihilate every atom. I find it difficult to believe that unreacted antimatter atoms would not fully react in the ship's M/AM reactor, then for some reason, they exhaust it out of the ship.

Another idea is that the antimatter residue is not antimatter deuterium itself, rather it's some sort of unique subatomic particles in the antimatter that survive the M/AM reaction then are exhausted out of the ship. Hence, the sensors detect these residual "particles" or "residue" from antimatter. There could also be some sort of impurity or additive in the antimatter fuel which is left behind after the M/AM reaction which is characteristic to the antimatter fuel generation equipment. I'm not up on my M/AM science, so, a little help from the Particle Physics community is needed.

 

[Mytran]

I think that "antimatter residue" is just 23rd century slang for what is also known as a "warp trail" in the other series.
Certainly, in plot terms it fulfils the exact same function!

 

[Henoch]

I think that "antimatter residue" is just 23rd century slang for what is also known as a "warp trail" in the other series.
Certainly, in plot terms it fulfils the exact same function!

Good catch. In TNG, I envisioned the "warp trail" to be a subspace wake or better yet, contrail left behind from a starship at warp. Starship contrails could be antimatter residue of subatomic particles either deposited in real space or in subspace like a water vapor contrail from an airplane.

 

[Stibbons]

In "The Galileo Seven" there's numerous mentions of shuttle fuel. Scotty's working inside a floor hatch when he says something to the effect of the fuel pipe giving way and them losing all their fuel. Think they'd notice if it had been antimatter (as would everyone else on that side of the planet). Then they drain the phasers to get the fuel back. Eh? Then when they're taking off Spock uses the "boosters" to break them free and then when in orbit he jettisons and ignites fuel that's seen coming out of the end of the side nacelles.

None of this makes sense!!! We're back to the old chestnut of whether or not shuttles are warp capable again, however...

I did read somewhere of a fusion motor being made vastly more powerful by enriching the deuterium it used with antimatter. The impulse engines are supposed to be powered by deuterium fueled fusion reactors, perhaps the antimatter in the exhaust is from this antimatter enrichment. If deuterium is the fuel that's lost, the phaser energy cells could used to extract more from water by electolysis. I doubt they could have made more antimatter. If they used antimatter enrichment the tiny amounts of antimatter required could have been kept in a magnetic containment bottle in the nacelles and only used for high speed flight. Indeed if it wasn't a long mission requiring high FTL or low warp speeds they might not have bothered to fuel up the antimatter bottles at all, or perhaps some shuttles simply aren't fitted with them, perhaps early shuttlecraft didn't. This might answer the question of why some shuttles are warp capable and some are not, and why some have antimatter residue in their exhaust.

THAT'S why they didn't have any shuttles in "The Enemy Within", they were all having antimatter containment bottles fitted in the nacelle housings.

 

[Donnewtype]

Good day all.
My question was to find out what theories were out there for how impulse drive worked, I didn't think it would start a deep dive into M/AM reaction residue and particle trails. I wanted to see what theories were out there so I could come up with an explanation that I could match somewhat to what's seen on TV. The impulse drive and main engineering just don't work.
My thinking behind the gravity wave drive is that gravity waves produce the same interference pattern as light does. Like this:

The light and dark bands are where the light waves reinforce and cancel each other out. In the gravity drive the light and dark bands correspond to where the gravity waves reinforce and cancel each other out. What I called a gravity node or anti-node. By changing the frequency, the resonance, diffraction ratio of the assembly grid output etc. you can shift the position of the nodes to a position directly behind the impulse drive, where it pushes against the ship, producing acceleration. Its exotic, contains 100% handwavium and to me meets the ability to be both as vague and as precise as you could want it. It also gives me a physical resemblance to the Engineering set, which is something that I wanted to incorporate into my Heavy Cruiser model. as seen here:

and here:

Its not two decks high, but it works for what it has to do. If I can refine the operational theory better, I'll post that as well. I need to do more research into the definitions and theory of wave interference.

Don

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe in Galileo seven they lost or ejected their antimatter?

 

[Timo]

In "The Galileo Seven" there's numerous mentions of shuttle fuel. Scotty's working inside a floor hatch when he says something to the effect of the fuel pipe giving way and them losing all their fuel. Think they'd notice if it had been antimatter (as would everyone else on that side of the planet). Then they drain the phasers to get the fuel back. Eh?

Thankfully not: whatever they get out of the phasers, it's never actually called "fuel"...

Supposedly, all Trek spacecraft have multiple power and propulsion systems. The fluid that escaped from the hole in the pipe might be related to one power system while the phasers put juice to another. Whether both then fire up the same propulsion system (warp, impulse, thrusters, or putative lift gravitics) or relate to different systems can then be argued. Since the liftoff is utterly unlike that of a rocket, it mattering not that the craft is forced to hover for the better part of a minute after takeoff, I'd argue the regular liftoff (dependent on "fuel" and involving careful calculations on how much is left) and the witnessed one (essentially a leisurely floating to the sky, not mentioned as having affected the fuel situation) involve wholly separate systems all the way.

As for the nature of the fuel lost, assuming it to be a liquid in most circumstances might be prudent. A lot would turn to vapor and escape when the pipe is holed, but a puddle would remain somewhere, and would only reach the engines once the pull of gravity and the temperatures involved would change at ascent... Deuterium, or perhaps deuterated water, might be made to fit that bill.

The power obtained from the phasers would be something different altogether; for all we know, the exact same sort of power packs make the handheld antigravs ("Obsession" et al.) float, by pumping electricity or whatever into the antigravity coil thingamabobs. Just use more of those to tickle the corresponding coils at the bottom of the shuttle.

Then when they're taking off Spock uses the "boosters" to break them free

...Suggesting boosters had not been involved originally. But involving them decreased the odds of holding orbit. So I'd speculate Spock lifted off using the gravitics that make things float in Trek, but these had little utility outside the planet's gravity field, and a vaguely rocketlike device was required for maneuvers at the top of the trajectory.

and then when in orbit he jettisons and ignites fuel that's seen coming out of the end of the side nacelles.

And ejecting of warp plasma from warpshuttle nacelles is a thing in spinoff shows, FWIW. Although warp plasma is never considered "fuel" anywhere.

This might answer the question of why some shuttles are warp capable and some are not, and why some have antimatter residue in their exhaust.

What need is there for "some" here, though? We never hear of a TOS shuttle that would be explicitly warp-incapable. And the spinoffs show warp-capable shuttles aplenty, in all size ranges and all eras (although the compact tech evades Earth engineers in ENT still, plenty of friendly aliens have it).

There are basically only four sublight shuttles in Trek: the ENT pods (rather legitmately and absolutely consistently), the Type 15 shuttlepod in "Time Squared" (but this might be temporary damage rather than something in the specs), the Type 7 shuttle in "Q Who?" (but Riker starting out with a search pattern for a sublight craft might simply mean reasonable initial action and be followed by a wider search for a warp craft, whcih we know Type 7 to be) and the supposed Type 10 shuttlepod in "The Sound of Her Voice" (but its absence of a warp core may simply mean it's easier to dismount one from a shuttlepod than from a starship).

THAT'S why they didn't have any shuttles in "The Enemy Within", they were all having antimatter containment bottles fitted in the nacelle housings.

Modular shuttles, with optional warp innards, might well be a thing. We know fighting modules are a thing, from recent DSC, and we saw Spock's shuttle get a radical interior redecoration in a jiffy in "Immunity Syndrome".

It's just that we never met a TOS shuttle that explicitly lacked warp or antimatter or, say, transporters or phasers. (Although any other hero would have tried to use the latter when grabbed by monsters, Kirk might simply have shown more restraint - and there never really was a situation where transporters would have saved the day.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

I did read somewhere of a fusion motor being made vastly more powerful by enriching the deuterium it used with antimatter. The impulse engines are supposed to be powered by deuterium fueled fusion reactors, perhaps the antimatter in the exhaust is from this antimatter enrichment. If deuterium is the fuel that's lost, the phaser energy cells could used to extract more from water by electolysis. I doubt they could have made more antimatter. If they used antimatter enrichment the tiny amounts of antimatter required could have been kept in a magnetic containment bottle in the nacelles and only used for high speed flight. Indeed if it wasn't a long mission requiring high FTL or low warp speeds they might not have bothered to fuel up the antimatter bottles at all, or perhaps some shuttles simply aren't fitted with them, perhaps early shuttlecraft didn't. This might answer the question of why some shuttles are warp capable and some are not, and why some have antimatter residue in their exhaust.

Excellent solutions plus this relates back to original topic of the thread: how it works? My handwavium:

Shuttlecraft may use a fusion-based gravity drive for both STL and low FTL (yes, I'm still a big fan that impulse drives plus a gravity reduction field gives FTL). Even in the 23rd century, assume a "pure" fusion power plant does not fit into a small shuttle. To overcome the problem, they inject antimatter into the reaction chamber with excess deuterium to provide the "spark" or heat source to ignite and maintain the fusion reaction (the small power plant is not capable to maintain the fusion reaction so it needs a constant supply of antimatter). The fusion reactor provides the power to run the shuttle's impulse drive. The antimatter fuel is stored in separate pods (note spheres at rear of each nacelle). The deuterium fuel is stored in the spheres at the front of each nacelle. Both fuels are routed into the central reactor under the floor of the shuttle body. Damage to the bottom of shuttle body caused the loss of deuterium fuel. The Impulse/gravity drive are in the center of each nacelle (if you like using the two nacelles for the dual interference gravity generators for propulsion). The anti-gravity field for gravity reduction is either also under the floor or are shown as the vent things at the rear of the shuttle body, or maybe they are just exhaust vents for the fusion reactor. In Obsession, it hints at a relation between radioactive waste (probably from the fusion reactors) and the impulse vents:

SCOTT: Captain, while we're waiting I've taken the liberty of cleaning the radioactive disposal vent on number two impulse engine, but we'll be ready to leave orbit in under half an hour...
KIRK: Scotty, try flushing the radioactive waste into the ventilation system. See what effect that has...
SCOTT [OC]: Scott, Captain. The creature's moving back toward the number two impulse vent. The radioactive flushing may be affecting it.
KIRK: Open the vent.​

As indicated above, the hand phasers were able to generate new deuterium fuel by somehow fusing neutrons to the hydrogen atoms. The hydrogen was generated by electrolysis (hand phaser powered, too?) of water molecules from drinking, sink, toilet water supplies.

I'll have more on the design from @Donnewtype a little later. I like where you are going with it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In my Head Canon, Impulse is a combination of multiple systems simultaneously.
Hyper-Impulse is getting all 3 systems working unison which is difficult while getting 2/3 working together is far easier. Hyper-Impulse became a thing past the 24th century.

1) Fusion Reaction creates residual plasma that has the Electro Plasma siphoned of it's main electrical component and stored, as propellent ready to be used for emissions. Then a Ion Thruster or Plasma Thruster like system of Fixed Nozzled with Electro-Magnetic thrust vectoring accelerates the remaining Plasma out of the Nozzle for traditional main thrust
2) Gravimetric Drive that can lift any vessel off the surface of a planet and allows omni-directional travel. Inspired from Babylon 5
3) Static Warp Fields/Shell that lower Inertial Forces allows for high speed rapid vector changes and lower energy requirements for acceleration. This was done when DS9 needed to be moved from Bajor to the Worm Hole.

 

[Henoch]

It also gives me a physical resemblance to the Engineering set, which is something that I wanted to incorporate into my Heavy Cruiser model.

I think the impulse reactor/engine layout should also reflect the saucer top hatch markings, too.

I always liked the concept that the reactors and engines run on each side of the top spine. under the spine are only power connections to and from the primary and the secondary hulls, connections between both impulse reactors and engines, and turbolift shafts. I put the engineer control room and ~ 30' pipe structure just to the port side and off the main ~50 foot radius curved corridor which pulls the engine room towards the center of the saucer and also gives ceiling height.

 

[Henoch]

Feature-wise, the three heavy bands around the bottom of the saucer hull could be a gravity reduction field generator for the saucer portion of the ship. (Not part of the deflectors-screens-shields).

 

[Mytran]

Feature-wise, the three heavy bands around the bottom of the saucer hull could be a gravity reduction field generator for the saucer portion of the ship. (Not part of the deflectors-screens-shields).

I'm a big fan of assigning functions to the various features we see on the exterior of the ship, so this works well.
Likewise, concerning the saucer undercut: It makes no sense to deliberately remove floor space from part of the ship. However, if the undercut were simply the result of an additional ring around the perimeter of the saucer perhaps to aid in the mass reduction/structural integrity) than that would make a least a little sense.

Very rough illustration of my idea:

 

[Timo]

As indicated above, the hand phasers were able to generate new deuterium fuel

How so? What they do with the phasers is explicated as "substitute fuel". The wording may mean three things: more of that which was missing; something to stand in for that which cannot be had; or perhaps a freeform response to a phrase that used certain terminology, somewhat mutilating it in the process to make a point.

Since Scotty himself is introducing the term "substitute fuel", number three is out. But he also says modifications are needed before the shuttle can digest the substitute, so number one is out IMHO as well. It can't be more of the same, because Scotty isn't introducing a new source or a new refueling interface - he's specifically "adjusting the main reactor" to work with what the heroes have.

When the heroes subsequently use fuel, we don't know for sure whether it's substitute or leftover original, or a bit of both. Granted, Scotty exclaims that the leak results in them having "no fuel", but the excitable repairman may be overlooking that little puddle that ultimately allows Spock to light his flare.

What might be measured as "pounds psi", I wonder?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Stibbons]

What might be measured as "pounds psi", I wonder?

Timo Saloniemi

How much thrust is generated if you really believe the drive works, clearly. Must be something like the "Credulity Drive" from the "Tank Vixens" comic that only works if the people using it don't know how it works. That is, it's just a VCR that shows you a video of the stars streaking past on the way to your destination and your gullibility is what makes it go.

 

[Ronald Held]

Go to the TNG manual. They should list the mass of the ship and how much deuterium it carries. Do not remember if any impulse drive quantities were listed.