Imagining the Federation governmental structure

[Penta]

Some further thoughts, since that last post was drawn up over days:

The way I see it, unlike in a strict Presidential system, Federation cabinet members regularly appear before the committees which oversee them - the President may well receive "advice and consent" on treaties, nominations, etc by actually showing up in the Council Chambers. (There's stories that Washington tried this with the early US. It didn't go so well - nobody in the Senate was willing to honestly oppose the President to his face, because George Washington had such a monumental stature politically. He gave up, quit coming, and the system where the President only appears to deliver speeches developed.)

This should not mean that the President, while he may have the possibility to appear on the floor of the Council, regularly does so -it's a question of time. Unless the President can be in multiple places at once, it is far more efficient for a Speaker to be chosen from among the Council Members to preside.

Concurrent with that, I do see the President as making annual (possibly more regular) "State of the Federation" speeches to the Council and the assembled dignitaries of government. They'd serve the same function as State of the Union speeches in real life - a coordinated piece of "civil theater" for the President to outline his agenda for the year (or time period), the movers and shakers to mingle and such, and so forth.

The way I see it - there's not a permanent campaign like there is in the US. However, the sheer logistics of a popularly-elected President for the entire UFP means that it probably takes years to organize a campaign to get elected. The Federation certainly doesn't seem to utilize the same degree of mass media as we do, which would make a planet-by-planet "ground game" essential.

So figure that people announce their candidacies and campaign something like 2 years ahead. Long stretches are spent in transit between planets.

(Alternatively, the concept of the candidate actually doing a whistle-stop type tour (or even a Federation-wide campaign trail) might be considered insane. Which would make the lack of poltiical parties even weirder to comprehend.)

On the other hand - whether or not the candidate goes out on the trail like we're used to, I see Presidential runs as being enormously expensive. Maybe they're publicly financed, but I honestly don't see how that could be. Additionally, without parties, how do you keep there from being 80 million candidates for the one post?

 

[T'Girl]

The President officially nominates all ... diplomatic officers from the United Federation of Planets of any rank ...

Is Captain Picard a official diplomat?

 

[Sci]

The United States has states, territories, protectorates.

It does, but it won those territories by conquering them, and then not fully integrating them into the Union as states. I'd hardly think the Federation does the same thing ...

And would the Federation compel the return off un-integrated territories? I'm sure after the war the Romulans would love to get their Earth-conquered territories back.

Who's to say that United Earth conquered any territories form the Romulan Star Empire?

Some Federation members may be "Full Members." Others may choose a more limited role, agreeing to the Federations laws to become "Trade Only Members."

But that idea makes no sense. You're either part of the Federation or you're not; Federation law either applies to you or it doesn't. Why become "Trade Members" -- gaining some of the obligations of Membership but not equal representation in the Federation government -- when you can just negotiate a trade treaty but remain independent?

I quess it would have to do with who has the power, hypothetical situation: There's an existing interstellar government, ten species, ten home worlds, hundred colonies (round numbers).The Federation really wants this union to join the Federation, they have dilithium, technology, trade, and culture. They would be an asset to the Federation in every way. Oh, and they have a sizable fleet in a time when the Federation is facing a problem on it's far frontier. The union generally wants to join the Federation. But only under their terms, they don't want a trade agreement or a mutual defense pact, they will become a Federation Member. The Federation has conditions and so do they.

Sure. But the idea that anyone would want to become an unequal Federation Member -- would want to be subject to Federation law but wouldn't want an equal say in making that law -- is absurd.

And, yes, being a Federation Member means accepting the rule of Federation law. The Federation is not a mere alliance -- it is an interstellar state. We know this because the Federation Council was able to pass legislation establishing a Warp 5 speed limit within Federation space and for Federation vessels (TNG: "Forces of Nature"), because it conducts foreign policy with other interstellar states without consulting its Member State governments (Star Trek VI, "The Way of the Warrior"), because it maintains its own military in the Federation Starfleet (TOS: "Court Martial"), because it has the capacity to declare martial law on its Member States' planets (DS9: "Homefront"), because it possesses its own law enforcement agencies with powers of arrest in both Starfleet (DS9: "Let He Who Is Without Sin...") and an agency called Federation Security (Star Trek III), because it has a Federation Supreme Court with the power of judicial review (DS9: "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?"), because it declares and wages war (DS9 Dominion War arc), because it has a Charter and Constitution that enumerate the rights of its citizens and which its Member States must obey (TNG: "The Drumhead," DS9: "The Accession"), and because it has an elected President who other Member States see as being "their" President (Star Trek IV, DS9: "Paradise Lost").

Certainly, the Federation seems to practice federalism. The Federation government doesn't have absolute authority in all areas of society; there are some areas where the Federation seems to practice dual sovereignty and leave the Member States to decide those issues for themselves. But the fact remains that the Federation is not a mere alliance or intergovernmental organization like the United Nations; it is a state in its own right, and as such the idea that one can be a Federation Member without being subject to Federation law is absurd.

Which, again, makes no sense. The territories in the U.S. that have non-voting members of Congress are all trying to change that, because they don't want to be rendered unequal before U.S. law and resent being subject to federal law without having equal say in federal law. No one would willingly choose to subject themselves to Federation law without getting equal say in the government.

A non-voting member would be a specie who have no cultural experiences with representational governments. Being in the Federation brings them security and happiness, they enjoy the social interaction with other species. They're perfectly content to let others take care of the messy business of government. Sci, they don't vote because they don't want to, and no one's going to make them.

A state that is not in itself some form of democracy? Then the Federation shouldn't allow them to join, period. That would be like the United States allowing a dictatorship to join as a state.

The Federation after all isn't just it's government.

I agree, the Federation is not a government. A government is the organization charged with running a state. The Federation is a state, not a government (though it has a government), just like the Commonwealth of Australia is a state, not a government (though it has a government).

Well, the United States allows its states to be members of international groups and parties to international compacts, subject to federal regulation. I'm sure the Federation would allow the same of its Member States, provided that sovereignty remain with the Federation.

You're assuming that a potential member is agreeing to surrender their sovereignty upon joining the Federation.

To be specific, I'm assuming -- because the evidence from the canon makes it very clear that this is the case -- that the Federation practices federalism, sharing some power with the Member State governments while retaining certain powers for its own government.

And I'm assuming that because we've seen far too much evidence that the Federation possesses sovereignty in its own right not to (as I outlined above).

The possibility exists Sci that the Federation is powerless inside the domains of the individual Federation members.

There's really no evidence of that, especially given as how we know that Federation Starfleet officers are authorized to serve as law enforcement in Federation Member States' territories from "Let He Who Is Without Sin...."

The episode Journey To Babel suggests that the Federation's power over it's members is in fact weak.

We can't cite "Journey to Babel" to support much of anything about how the Federation normally works, because Kirk's captains log entries make it very clear that the Federation is on the verge of civil war over the issue of admitting Coridan to the Federation. In other words, it's an extraordinary situation that's far removed from how the Federation normally functions. Citing "Journey to Babel" to support the idea that Federation authority over its Members is a bit like citing Bleeding Kansas or the nullification crisis to support the idea that federal authority over U.S. states is weak.

A Federation member, in addition to being a member of the Federation, may also be a member of another interstellar government, or multiple governments, as many as they choose, to the degree they choose. The Federation would have no say in this because of one important fact:

The Federation is it's members.

No.

You can't serve two masters. The State of Ohio cannot simultaneously be the Province of Ohio in Canada, and Vulcan cannot simultaneously be a Member State of the United Federation of Planets and a Member State of the Federated Union of Worlds. The law is the law, and you can't belong to two separate states.

And, no, the Federation is not merely its Members, any more than the United States of America is merely its states or Canada is merely its provinces or the Federal Republic of Germany is merely its Länder. The Federation is a state in its own right, with its own law and its own, quadrant-wide concerns. The United States of America is not merely Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont, Ohio, Arkansas, etc.; Canada is not merely Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia, etc.; the Federal Republic of Germany is not merely Bavaria, Berlin, Brandenburg, etc.; Australia is not merely New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, etc. And the Federation is more than just United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, the Republic of Bajor, etc.

If a member world is on the boundary between the Federation and a second interstellar state, it may be encouraged to join both governments, the world would be a important diplomatic players between the two states.

No. The Federation may well encourage that Member State to join an interstellar organization -- a multilateral diplomatic platform like the Organization of American States -- under Federation supervision, but it would not allow another state to claim its territory.

I personally think that the Federation will be more of a melting pot of governmental ideas, not simply a analog of a Earth western-style democracy,

I agree. The Federation is likely an amalgamation of Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite-style democracy along with Earth democracy.

Years ago I wrote a story of the growth of the interstellar government, Earth, Vulcan and the others formed The United Planets (from Forbidden Planet), after decades of exploring space they came upon The Federation, after a period of conflict and friendship the two large republics merged, the UP didn't join the Fed and the Fed didn't join the UP. Again they merged, forming The United Federation of Planets.

The problem with this idea is that it is explicitly contradicted by TNG's "The Outcast," which establishes that the United Federation of Planets was founded in 2161.

If the Federation admits a single world that's one thing, but the Federation is going to be admitting on occasion large republics, empires, confederacys, merging with them. The Federation has to be offering more than "Come be our willing thralls."

You have a strange definition of "willing thrall" if you define it as being a partner in a democracy that you have an equal say in running.

In the case of the Federation, it would be a neat point to say that a Federation Councillor must be one of two things:

a) Directly elected by the planet they represent.
b) Chosen by the planetary government, and responsible to that government.

I'll agree with "chosen by the planetary government," but I don't agree with the idea of the Councillor being responsible to that government. A Federation Councillor is supposed to be a representative of the people of his Member State, not an ambassador who represents his Member State's government. That'd be like the Governor of the State of Ohio being able to recall United States Senator George Voinovich.

Plus since United Earth is apparently a Parliamentary democracy, it seems that its councillor is more like Andor's than Betazed's.

We don't know, actually; the mechanism by which the Federation Councillor from United Earth is chosen has never been established, although Councillor Matthew Mazibuko is established to be a long-standing member of the Council.

In later books the authors have taken greater pains to refer to parliamentary forms of government, which is a nice change.

Yep. It's nice to see a Federation that isn't homogenized too much.

 

[Sci]

At the top of the Executive Branch is the President of the United Federation of Planets - officially, "His Excellency <Name>, the President of the United Federation of Planets". Most commonly, he is referred to is as "The President" or "President <name>", with a personal reference style of "Mr. President";

For whatever it's worth, the novel Andor: Paradigm established that the honorific addresses (the equivalents of "Mister" or "Madam") for the four different Andorian sexes of zhen, shen, chan, and thaan are Zha, Sha, Cha, and Tha. And the New Frontier novels established Shir as the proper honorific form of address for members of multisexed (hermaphroditic) species such as the Hermat. So that strongly implies that for these species, the proper form of address, instead of "Mister President" or "Madam President," would be, "Zha President," "Sha President," "Cha President," "Tha President," and "Shir President."

No word on the proper form of address for asexual presidents.

The President officially nominates all military and judicial officers of the UFP (the topmost Admirals of Starfleet are hired and fired by the President personally, and Supreme Court justices are nominated by the Palais), as well as all diplomatic officers from the United Federation of Planets of any rank, most especially Ambassadors heading missions. All civil and military commissions are formally issued by the President.

This is consistent with A Time for War, A Time for Peace, which depicts the Federation President as appointing all Federation Ambassadors. (That novel also establishes that when a new administration takes over, Federation Ambassadors traditionally tender their resignations and then allow the President the option of retaining or replacing them.)

The President may declare martial law on any planet of the UFP, directly ruling the world from Earth. He may also nationalize any industry in an emergency.

That's consistent with what DS9's "Homefront" establishes about martial law, and the novel Losing the Peace establishes that the President may nationalize an industry in an emergency, too.

The President must approve all laws before they enter force, or may veto them (subject to a 2/3 vote of the Council for override).

A Time to Heal also establishes a Federation President's veto power and requirement of presidential assent for an Act of Council to become law.

The President formally owns all whales on Earth that have not been found sentient.
[A homage to the plot of STIV, as well as to the British Monarch's "ownership" of swans.]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the President of United Earth to be the formal owner of all non-sentient whales on Earth?

The President is the honorary chair of numerous organizations, among them the Federation Red Cross and the Federation Scouts.
[IRL, the US President appoints members to the Board of Governors of the American Red Cross - he also is the honorary President of the Boy Scouts of America, and I believe also the Girl Scouts.]

That's a nice touch, but I feel like a Red Cross and Scouts organization is more likely to be a United Earth and/or United Earth and former U.E. colonies thing than a Federation-wide thing.

The President and the Executive Branch are generally headquartered out of Paris on Earth, most particularly out of the Palais de la Concorde. Of course, the Palais cannot even hope to hold central offices for most Federation Government entities, nor (in some cases) is this even advisable.

I always thought the novels were being somewhat unrealistic in depicting the Palais as housing so much of the Federation government's infrastructure. I justified it by presuming that the Councillors' offices and Cabinet members' officers in the Palais are mostly ceremonial offices, holdovers from when the Federation bureaucracy was much smaller, and assumed that the Palais is surrounded by smaller office buildings that house the Councillors' main offices and staffs, as well as the staff for the various committees (called "sub-councils" in the novels).

Given the names we see for office buildings in the Capitol Complex such as the Hart Senate Office Building or the Rayburn House Office Building, I figure they have names like the Soval Council Office Building or the Sarek Council Office Building.

Starfleet, for example, is utterly paranoid about putting the President, the Secretary of Starfleet, and the Chief of Staff in the same location more than they have to.

Whose COS?

Whenever they do come together, security is usually extremely high. Hence, the Palais de la Concorde is the preserve of the President and his family on the upper levels of the 15-story tower,

For whatever it's worth, the novels establish the Palais de la Concorde as the President's official office place, with the Presidential Office on Floor 15, but not where he resides. The official residence of the Federation President is Château Thelian, located in the Loire Valley of France and named for former President Thelianaresth th'Vorothishria of Andor, who had it constructed in the mid-24th Century. No word on the Federation President's official residence before the Château.

with the lower levels (and the numerous underground levels) being the offices of the Executive Office of the President, the Federation Security Council,

I take it your vision of the Federation Security Council is something more akin to the United States National Security Council -- an agency within the executive branch charged with helping the President -- rather than the novels' vision of it as a Federation Council committee that works closely with the President on Federation security issues?

and other agencies tasked with the direct support of the President. In the deepest levels under Paris is the Presidential Situation Room.

I'm curious why you named it the "Presidential Situation Room" instead of just "the Situation Room" -- or the Monet Room, as it's called in the novels.

In order to become President, the requirements are as follows:

The President must be a citizen of the Federation, either 35 Terran years old or the species equivalent (There is a massive "Table of Chronological Equivalencies", covering every species known to the Federation, which is approved by the Federation Council for every election cycle, compiled by the Federation Health Service and Starfleet Medical), certified as never having been judged insane, bankrupt, or a convicted felon,

Why should someone forced into bankruptcy at some point in his life not be able to become President later on?

When the President is incapacitated or dead, the Cabinet temporarily assumes his responsibilities collectively, for the purpose becoming known as the "Executive Council". This is temporary; a special election must be held within three months.

Hm. I don't really like that idea; I feel like a full Cabinet is unlikely to be able to come to decisions, particularly in times of crisis. I think that either having a clear line of succession or the novels' idea of a President Pro Tempore is more viable.

[As a practical matter, even with warp drive, proper campaigning on an interstellar scale in one month is not likely to be practical or desirable. Or healthy for the candidates. (It's basically admitted that in real life that the insane pace of Presidential campaigning in the US puts an incredible toll upon candidate health - that process lasts the better part of a year.) Three months isn't great, but makes it slightly less insane.]

For what it's worth, A Time for War, A Time for Peace made it clear that the campaign was pretty madcap, yeah -- and the candidates didn't really get to stump throughout most of the Federation, instead having to focus on the core worlds and rely on the media to reach more distant worlds.

However, compensating for the shortened time period in which to campaign, the winner only serves until the next regularly scheduled change of administration, presuming they do not run again.

Ah, a clear distinction there -- in the novels, once the new president has assumed office after a special election, they have a full term of office and all future elections are then re-scheduled.

 

[Sci]

Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs - Heads up the Federation Diplomatic Service, and the wider "foreign ministry" housed in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Known by the geekily-minded as the Foreign Secretary,

Some notes:

This fella is called the Federation Secretary of the Exterior in the novels, and his department is the Department of the Exterior.

It's canonically established that it's called the Federation Diplomatic Corps, not the "Federation Diplomatic Service." (Here's its Memory Beta entry.)

Secretary of State for Starfleet - the Starfleet Secretary does basically what the title suggests - provides the day to day civilian control of Starfleet.

The novels seem to be establishing that the Federation Secretary of Defense is this equivalent, although they also establish that the President usually directly issues orders to Starfleet through the Starfleet Liaison to the Office of the President, who serves as the President's, Secretary of Defense's, and Federation Security Advisor's chief military advisor.

the Federation Investigative Service (FIS), not unlike the FBI in the old United States.

Hm. A civilian law enforcement agency appeared in Star Trek III called Federation Security. I wonder if they're related?

Secretary of State for Commerce – In truth, something of a sinecure post, because the organizations under Commerce basically run themselves. Commerce gets stuck with a dizzying collection of agencies that don’t fit anywhere else and sometimes have only the vaguest notion of relatedness to commerce: The Federation Census Service, which runs the decennial census required by the UFP Constitution, is one of them; so is the Federation Space Control Agency, which acts as something like “air traffic control” for Federation Space, and the Federation Merchant Marine. It’s often debated whether the Secretary for Commerce belongs among the top rank of Cabinet officials; however, the fact has been that the being who runs the Presidential campaign of the incumbent President usually gets this post, giving the department a truly out-sized influence.

The novels have established that a Federation Secretary of Commerce exists, though it's a somewhat marginalized post whose primary duty appears to be negotiating trade agreements with foreign states. The current Secretary of Commerce under President Nanietta Bacco is Ralph Offenhouse (the temporally displaced 20th Century businessman from TNG's "The Neutral Zone").

Director, Federation Security Service – Sort of the MI5 of Federation law enforcement, the Security Service is responsible for civilian counter-espionage, anti-terrorism, civilian security clearances, and internal security. Not nearly feared or even well-known about, FSS usually takes a back seat to Member State internal security services such as the V’Shar on Vulcan. Day to day, he reports to the Attorney-General; FSS agents do not have the power to make arrests.

Would you say Federation Security from Star Trek III is this service?

Director, Federation Protective Service – The FPS is responsible for the protection of Federation dignitaries in the executive branch, up to and including the President (though in that case they work closely with Starfleet Security, preventing either agency from becoming a Praetorian Guard); the members of the Federation Council (and the Council precincts in London) are protected by their own small agency, the Council Guard, and the Justices of the Supreme Court are protected by the Federation Marshals Service. FPS also protects Executive Branch facilities throughout Earth.

Interestingly, Articles of the Federation established that the President was protected at all times by members of Starfleet Security until the Destiny trilogy revealed that an unnamed civilian agency had replaced SFS. This could easily be that agency.

The way I figure it, the Federation bureaucracy as of 2383 is two things – gigantic, and moving at a positively glacial speed. The honest truth is that even at subspace speed, messages that cross the Federation may well take weeks or months. (6 months according to the chart at http://www.startrek.com.sg/warp.html, which claims to come from the ST Encyclopedia) This functionally limits how big the UFP can get, and would slow bureaucratic processes to a crawl.

I think you should disregard that chart. Movement across the Federation is dependent upon the speed of plot; it's not consistent. We've seen the U.S.S. Defiant race across the Federation from the distant frontier world of Bajor in just a couple of days, and we've seen running battles from the coreward border of the Federation reach Earth in just a few hours (Star Trek: First Contact). I'd suggest that information only takes, at most, a day or so to travel across the Federation, and that movement across the Federation takes maybe four days at most; that seems to more closely match travel times seen in the canon while still maintaining the idea of size. Think of it as the equivalent of travel times across the United States in the early-to-mid 20th Century.

Ideally, it’ll help novel and fanfic writers, too, but the novels have set up their own thought process re the Federation governmental structure, which I totally respect (and just wish books like Articles of the Federation were still in print!).

There's a Kindle edition available immediately, and there are used copies available from $5.92.

 

[Penta]

Whose COS?

Doh. I should be clearer; this is my pet name for whatever the hell Starfleet's top uniformed officer is called this week.

Elsethread, I postulate a possible Starfleet Command structure as of the TNG/DS9/VOY period.

It's important to note, Sci, that I haven't read many of the novels. My money supply just is not big enough.

Moving on:

Yes, I envision the Federation Security Council as being somewhat like the US NSC. One of the unacknowledged truths of international relations is that it's becoming clear that, in order to have a national security bureaucracy that runs at modern time-scales, most large states need something like the NSC to keep the various instruments of state power coordinated.

I'm probably not alone in figuring that the UFP will learn the same lesson re interstellar relations.

Re the Sit Room: Named so specifically to distinguish it from any such creatures the various executive departments might have.

Re the Presidential requirements: Bankruptcy was a bit of a minor touch - the idea is that if you can't get a handle on your debts such that you're delcared bankrupt by a court, you should really not be dealing with the massive budget of the UFP - that invites problems like embezzlement. It can easily be excised.

Re Succession to the Presidency: The idea of having a Pres Pro Tem elected by the Council is interesting, but has some interesting issues. You want to minimize the appeal of assassinating the President for the purpose of gaining power.

I had considered a VP, but ran quickly into the problem we encounter with the US VP - What the hell does he do when the Pressident ain't dead?

Finally: I dislike the idea of the incapacitation, resignatiom, or death of the President upsetting the cycle of elections. No, it's a case of where the institution of the Presidency must be greater than the man - the clock keeps ticking, to hell with the person.

 

[Penta]

Some notes:

This fella is called the Federation Secretary of the Exterior in the novels, and his department is the Department of the Exterior.

It's canonically established that it's called the Federation Diplomatic Corps, not the "Federation Diplomatic Service." (Here's its Memory Beta entry.)

Secretary of State for Starfleet - the Starfleet Secretary does basically what the title suggests - provides the day to day civilian control of Starfleet.

The novels seem to be establishing that the Federation Secretary of Defense is this equivalent, although they also establish that the President usually directly issues orders to Starfleet through the Starfleet Liaison to the Office of the President, who serves as the President's, Secretary of Defense's, and Federation Security Advisor's chief military advisor.



Hm. A civilian law enforcement agency appeared in Star Trek III called Federation Security. I wonder if they're related?



The novels have established that a Federation Secretary of Commerce exists, though it's a somewhat marginalized post whose primary duty appears to be negotiating trade agreements with foreign states. The current Secretary of Commerce under President Nanietta Bacco is Ralph Offenhouse (the temporally displaced 20th Century businessman from TNG's "The Neutral Zone").



Would you say Federation Security from Star Trek III is this service?



Interestingly, Articles of the Federation established that the President was protected at all times by members of Starfleet Security until the Destiny trilogy revealed that an unnamed civilian agency had replaced SFS. This could easily be that agency.

The way I figure it, the Federation bureaucracy as of 2383 is two things – gigantic, and moving at a positively glacial speed. The honest truth is that even at subspace speed, messages that cross the Federation may well take weeks or months. (6 months according to the chart at http://www.startrek.com.sg/warp.html, which claims to come from the ST Encyclopedia) This functionally limits how big the UFP can get, and would slow bureaucratic processes to a crawl.

I think you should disregard that chart. Movement across the Federation is dependent upon the speed of plot; it's not consistent. We've seen the U.S.S. Defiant race across the Federation from the distant frontier world of Bajor in just a couple of days, and we've seen running battles from the coreward border of the Federation reach Earth in just a few hours (Star Trek: First Contact). I'd suggest that information only takes, at most, a day or so to travel across the Federation, and that movement across the Federation takes maybe four days at most; that seems to more closely match travel times seen in the canon while still maintaining the idea of size. Think of it as the equivalent of travel times across the United States in the early-to-mid 20th Century.

Ideally, it’ll help novel and fanfic writers, too, but the novels have set up their own thought process re the Federation governmental structure, which I totally respect (and just wish books like Articles of the Federation were still in print!).

There's a Kindle edition available immediately, and there are used copies available from $5.92.

Okay. What you call the folks on the Cabinet is, to me, irrelevant - just so long as the functions are covered. When I figured on names, I borrowed the British system, purely because I didn't want to totally ape the American one.

Tracing the lineages:

I see what was Federation Security being split in two - FSS being the MI5-ish elements, FIS being the ordinary criminal folks.

So far as the Secretary of Commerce: Hm. Even more a post for the President's campaign manager, then. (Historically, the sinecure post in the US Cabinet used to be Postmaster General, for precisely the reason that the Post Office Department more or less ran itself, until the POD was corporatized and became the USPS in 1971.)

And finally, re the chart, the size of the UFP, etc:

Okay. Four days - if that's the case, then over a year or two of campaigning you have absolutely no excuse as a Presidential candidate not to hit all of the member worlds of the UFP at least once.

Additionally, in such a case Starfleet may rightly be judged incompetent at mobilization.

Personally, I sense a 10k LY UFP as being too big. 800 LY seems at least plausible.

Within that, the old idea of Warp Highways deserves some serious consideration. The rare planets along the highways see a lot of trade, people, etc, etc.

Most planets are nowhere near the highways.

If you take the highways properly, you can indeed get across the UFP in four days. Information may indeed take only a day to get across the UFP, along the associated "trunk lines".

To get from the highways out, though? Then it takes a while. A long while.

Re the novels: All I got to pay for em with is Amazon GCs. I ain't got a Kindle, and GCs can't be used on the secondary market as I understand it.

 

[Matt4511]

I see what was Federation Security being split in two - FSS being the MI5-ish elements, FIS being the ordinary criminal folks.

This happened in my home country. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police used to handle foreign intelligence, domestic security, hostage rescue/tactical units, as well as general policing in areas not covered by a metro, regional or provincial force. That was too much, and various things were hived off.

Foreign intelligence and domestic security is handled by the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service, which is only 25-30 years old. Canadian signals intelligence gathering and analyses is also handled here.

Policing and some anti-terrorist/hostage rescue capability is retained by the RCMP, which also has a unit that handles VIP protection and event securing.

(There is understandably still some overlap between the two, particularly as regards monitoring Islamic terror organizations operating within Canada. CSIS might have the spies, but the Mounties have the arresting powers and can still run intel-gathering missions on Canadian soil.)

Many explicitly tactical functions were hived off to a new unit in the Canadian Forces, of which essentially nothing is publicly known.

There's a real life example to look to, and a fairly recent one, to boot.

 

[Sam_I_Am]

RE: A vice-President. I always thought it would be neat if the council elected for itself a President pro Tempore of the Council when the President wasn't available to preside over meetings of the council. This person would also serve as President Pro Tempore of the Federation if the Presidency is vacant.

As the President of the UFP presides over the Federation Council, it would make sense if the deputy presiding officer temped if something happened to the President.

 

[T'Girl]

You can't serve two masters.

That's the point I'm trying to make, the members are the masters, the central government is their servant. It exists solely for their needs. Community, protection, security, trade.

I very much doubt the governments of Earth, Andor, Vulcan, Tellar, AC created the Federation so they could then hand over their authority and control to it. The only power the Federation has is what is delegated to it by the member planets.

Federation law deals basically with whatever doesn't fit under Member State jurisdiction

A member states "territorial" jurisdiction would be a bounded section of space in which the member is the sole authority, including all those persons present therein, and events which occur there. This means the Home world itself, usual the Home system too, colonies and resource areas. The member states don't control interstellar space, but do exercise authority a fair distance into their respective oort clouds and have unrestricted transit between their separated territories.

Local laws also apply within the star system of a member state - Federation laws apply in "Deep Space", areas outside the gravity well of the system star.

Federation law is in the area of interstellar space (warp speed limits) and interactions between member states, commerce, trade. Member states can and do delegate power to the Federation government. However even powers that have been under Federation control continuously for decades or a century are always considered temporary. Federation agents and officers have permission to investigate, make arrests, or do search, or seizure within the member states. Starfleet has on going permission to operate within member states territories.

Some additional thoughts.
* Especially during it's early days, one of the Federation's important duties was providing a Federation Interstellar Bank, to facilitate trade. This institution sets exchange rates and created "The Credit."
* Starfleet has it own intelligence division, the various intelligence agencies are required to interact.
* The Federation lacks the power to directly tax the member states. the member states pay into a operating fund. how much each pays is based on a complex formula.
* Because of advanced data systems, the bureaucracy is smaller than you might think.
* Not all member states are democracies. But they all do possess a single stable government.
* Succession to the Presidency, there needs to be a single individual already in place, ready to step in (the speaker?).
* The member states, collectively through the Federation, exercise sovereignty over non-member federation space/territory. Sovereignty meaning freedom from external control. And yes, it's complex. Think the high seas and Antarctica.

 

[neozeks]

It does, but it won those territories by conquering them, and then not fully integrating them into the Union as states. I'd hardly think the Federation does the same thing -- though the UFP probably has colonies that aren't full Member States or Member State colonies and which fall under Federation jurisdiction directly. I'd imagine that those colonies are only started on uninhabited planets and that those colonies become entitled to Federation Member State status if their population grows to a certain level.

So, I'm thinking, what kind of representation do people from these colonies get? They're not Member State citizens so they don't elect Councillors. Maybe they have non-voting representatives? What if their colony is very small? I assume they still get to vote in the presidential elections.

In terms of how many people any given Federation Councillor represents on the Council, the only real comparison I can think of in a democracy would be the Lok Sabha in India, whose members have so many constituents that there are serious questions about how any one person could possibly represent so many people or be democratically accountable. I'd consider it almost inevitable that you'd end up with some Member States with populations so large that they might opt for a form of indirect democracy with their Federation Councillor.

Which brings up the question of how the Federation President is elected. After all, he represents far more people than any single Councillor. Should he also be indirectly elected, by the Council? OTOH if he's elected by the Council, people from the above mentioned colonies get no vote at all. Maybe some kind of Electoral College is in order (a real one, not just a formal one like in the US), with representatives from both Member States (and their colonies) and federal colonies?

 

[Matt4511]

For what it's worth, in my own musings on how the colonies are represented, I'd assumed that colonies belonging to a member state were counted as part of that member state until large enough to be independent states of their own (Earth colonies reaching that status would seem to include Berengaria and Deneva).

Federation colonies might not have direct representation, but would perhaps have a rep on Earth to the Ministry of Colonization, or something similar, which is no doubt an enormous division of the government, and almost certainly a cabinet-level post for the minister.

Some form of local democracy at the colony level, such as electing the planetary governor or the representative to the Ministry, would make sense.

 

[T'Girl]

So, I'm thinking, what kind of representation do people from these colonies get? They're not Member State citizens so they don't elect Councillors. Maybe they have non-voting representatives? What if their colony is very small?

I assume they still get to vote in the presidential elections. If you relocated to one of United Earth's colonies I think you would still be a UE citizen. If on the other hand you were to immigrate to another Member states home world or colony, until you became a "naturalized" citizen there, you probably wouldn't get a vote.

Unless the Federation president is a direct popular vote by the general Federation populace.

Which brings up the question of how the Federation President is elected. After all, he represents far more people than any single Councillor. Should he also be indirectly elected, by the Council? OTOH if he's elected by the Council, people from the above mentioned colonies get no vote at all. Maybe some kind of Electoral College is in order (a real one, not just a formal one like in the US), with representatives from both Member States (and their colonies) and federal colonies?

Just before the Dominion war it would be easy to imagine the Federation's population approaching one trillion. A popular election might be unwieldy. Given the size of the Federation, would the candidates campaign on all the member worlds and the larger colonies too? Multiple cities on each world. It's hard to see a sitting president taking that much time away from official duties.

Having representatives to the council select the president would be simpler.

For what it's worth, in my own musings on how the colonies are represented, I'd assumed that colonies belonging to a member state were counted as part of that member state until large enough to be independent states of their own (Earth colonies reaching that status would seem to include Berengaria and Deneva).

Member colonies probably would vote as part of the home world's population (if the home world is democratic). But what about Federation colonies? A Federation exploration ship identifies a uninhabited class M world (or other wise for methane breathers), the world is opened up for colonization, groups come from various member worlds. How would these people be represented? If it's still a relatively low population colony, it sends no one to the council yet. Do the immigrants vote through their original home worlds? And if they begin to inter-marry, what of the off-spring? These colonies could sent a observer to the council, someone who doesn't vote, but can lobby their positions to actual representatives.

Some form of local democracy at the colony level, such as electing the planetary governor or the representative to the Ministry, would make sense.

Folks on the colonies should be selecting their city councils, mayors, maybe judges. It would depend on if these position are being chosen locally or back on the home world.

 

[neozeks]

Just to make clear, I was talking about specifically federal colonies in my original post. I fully agree Member State colonies get to vote for the Member State Councillor.

 

[Cheapjack]

It's amazing to read of people here who can't concieve of a world without money.

Reagan and Thatcher have so much to answer for.

Money hasn't always been around. Before that, we had barter. Before that, people just took what they wanted.

The idea is, that techonlogy in the 23rd Century has provided such cheap, plentiful, power, that there is not much need for it.

 

[neozeks]

It's amazing to read of people here who can't concieve of a world without money.

Reagan and Thatcher have so much to answer for.

Money hasn't always been around. Before that, we had barter. Before that, people just took what they wanted.

Oh, we can conceive things like barter or 'taking what you want' easily. We just don't think they're better or more practical than money.

 

[Cheapjack]

But you seem to have a problem imagining a world where technology has made things so cheap, everyone can have them.

Look at the internet. I'm using it in a library for free, admittedly on a two hour lease per day.

At one point, only monks and the aristocracy were able to read and get information that way. Could some of them imagined the world we have now?

 

[neozeks]

But you seem to have a problem imagining a world where technology has made things so cheap, everyone can have them.

Some things are cheap, yeah and everyone can get them. But some things are still not cheap or unlimited, thus you need a currency.

 

[Cheapjack]

Oh, there will still be greed, avarice,selfishness and the pursuit of power and the drive to control people in the ST Universe. Don't you worry about that.

But the point is, that some things will have become so cheap, that people will not have to fight and scrabble over them.

Look at the internet, now. It's more advantageous to mankind to have it abvailable relatively cheaper, free to me.People can share ideas and information and the human race progresses.

They have working fusion power in the ST Universe and it is very cheap.They can synthesise stuff cheaply and feed people cheaply.

 

[T'Girl]

But you seem to have a problem imagining a world where technology has made things so cheap, everyone can have them.

It's not that we can't conceive of it, it is that we don't want it. This is the way I see it. While not free, in "the future" you get this:
-You would have access to basic food and water. You won't starve or even go hungry/thirsty.
-You'll have someplace dry, warm and protected to live and sleep, but it might be a open bay arrangement that you share with twenty other people. You won't freeze or cook.
-There will be clothes on your back and shoes (keds) on your feet, a coat too.
-Local only public transit.
-K through 12 education.
-Health only medical.
-The internet, information and job openings only, no entertainment.

No vacations, space travel, jumping clubs, restaurants, gourmet foods, fine wines, stylish threads, condos, houses on the beach, hover cars. You want college time? Take a test to show you would prosper and maintain a 3.0 average. The world you live in will bend over backward to help you find and keep a job.

It is not that more COULDN"T be provided to you, the world WON"T be providing it for you. Want more, then "seek to better yourself" through education and hard work. Push, not for more free stuff, push yourself. And the free stuff you are receiving, it not free ...

It's charity.

Look at the internet. I'm using it in a library for free, admittedly on a two hour lease per day.

But the internet you are receiving at the public library isn't free. Taxpayer money goes to the library, the library then purchases internet access from a provider. When I use the computers at the university, that access come from state taxpayers, private tuition, and my scholarship.

I do think the Federation possesses a cashless system, like our debit system.