I'm re-watching/re-evaluating "Star Trek: Nemesis"

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lord Garth, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    Enterprise bowling alley
    I loved that look in NEM...and I love it in DSC. I never noticed or thought to compare the two though...good catch!

    I definitely need to turn down my home theater system for NEM...! I agree it packs an audio punch that the other Trek films do not.
  2. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Feb 14, 2003
    Massachusetts, USA
    I reevaluated Insurrection but I don't know if I'm willing to sit through Nemesis. It's the only Star Trek film I saw in the theater I considered walking out of. Atleast I saw it all the way through- I can't say the same for Star Trek Beyond but I digress.

    I remember hearing the TMP score in the soundtrack which was kind of cool but it made me want to watch TMP not Nemesis.

    Picard's joyride in the buggy seemed out of character for Picard and I don't remember if it served the plot in any way.

    Data's death seemed so anticlimactic and flat.

    I don't remember a single thing in this movie beyond some well lit scenes where Picard talks to the villain. I wasn't surprised it took in a paltry 40 million, and killed off the TNG film franchise.
    Qonundrum likes this.
  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

    May 7, 2011
    Aug 10, 1999
    Strangely, I think Star Trek: Picard might be Star Trek: Insurrection done right. Picard longs for the way things used to be (before the war in Insurrection's case or when he was in space in Picard's case), disagrees with Starfleet (presumably), and goes off on his own. And on a quest to retrieve Data. The only difference is this time Picard's with a less pristine bunch.
    lurok, SolarisOne and Armus like this.
  4. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

    Oct 16, 2000
    South Pennsyltucky
    What I found interesting about the Picard trailer was the sense of "survivor's guilt" he carries (or seems to carry -- it's a trailer, so it could be misleading) over Data.

    On a different note, I hadn't seen Tom Hardy's screen test video until yesterday, and it really quite something. My fan brain looks at it and says, "It looks like Davison-era Doctor Whp" -- the set, the video sheen, even Tom Hardy's performance. I like Hardy's performance here -- seated opposite the one person who can answer all his questions, he doesn't know how to be human or even how to articulate what he's feeling, so he's constantly on shifting emotional sands. It's an interesting performance.
    Lord Garth and Lance like this.
  5. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

    Aug 5, 2013
    The Northern Shires of England.
    I will never argue with someone who thinks nemesis is a steaming pile. I can see why they think that. I'm hugely aware of it's faults. But... I just love it. The bits that they needed to get right - the ship battle, delivered in absolute spades for me - I enjoy it much as the ship battles in TWOK. There's loads of other parts I like too, but the Riker fight was the worst scene in the movie, that sucked balls.
    lurok, Damian, KennyB and 1 other person like this.
  6. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

    Aug 30, 2013
    earth...but when?...spock?
    Also why did Shinzon pull himself awkwardly along the spike..? he wasn't that much impaled by Picard and just made the injuries much worse dragging himself along. (Im guessing it was in another movie they figured it would be cool to reference)
  7. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

    Jan 7, 2013
    I think he was trying to kiss Picard
  8. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

    Jul 19, 2001
    Very similar to a scene from Excalibur (1981) which Patrick Stewart was also in...............
  9. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

    Jul 31, 2001
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    I vaguely remember somebody making a comparison to something in the Lord of the Rings movies at the time. But I can't remember anything more specific.

  10. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

    May 3, 1999
    Quincy, MA
    I still think NEM has the best large-ship battle of any Trek film, but the rest of the film is utter crap.
    It's glaringly obvious that the dune-buggy ride and the fighter escape scenes are there solely for video-game adaptation. You know a movie is trouble when whole scenes are in there only for the eventual tie-in game.
    Smellmet likes this.
  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jan 1, 2017
    I've never been much a fan of any of the movies, but recently switched to Amazon Prime from Netflix and had the chance to see all of Nemesis, and I thought it was pretty good. You get a sense that the villains are experienced and dangerous, and know what they're doing. Everyone seems pretty well in character, and the VFX hold up well. On an emotional level, it isn't as successful as First Contact, and it's a lot darker, but still a worthy ST film.

    And to this day, it's still exciting to see these films for the gimmick of the larger budget when you are used to the TV show.
    Damian and Smellmet like this.
  12. FreddyE

    FreddyE Captain Captain

    Oct 15, 2009
    I love to hate this movie and I don´t think that will change. I won´t forgive them for killing Data. Yes, I know...Spiner wanted out because he thought he looked to old for an android. But that could have been solved so easily...just a throw away line that Data did something to his face to make it look older to not look so out of place with the others would have been enough.

    And of course it HAD to be Troi ramming the ship into the Scimitar...
  13. pfontaine2

    pfontaine2 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Apr 5, 2011
    Frankly, I've always like Nemesis with the exception of the entire Dune Buggy scene which was entirely unnecessary. Finding B4's body strewn across the landscape could have been done without the silliness of the chase. I think all the characters are handled very well, the effects are great and I even like the villain (and have no issue with the clone revelation). I never quite understood the hate this film gets but then again, I like Star Trek V, and don't like Star Trek VI.
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  14. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

    Aug 5, 2013
    The Northern Shires of England.
    Alongside FC, it's the only TNG film that feels like the stakes are high and that they actually could lose - which they did with the loss of Data (though I concede this element is utterly cribbed from TWOK).

    The end battle has a proper feel of desperation about it, which I found to be hugely entertaining.
    lurok, Vger23, Damian and 1 other person like this.
  15. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

    Nov 2, 2017
    United States
    You know, I never thought of that myself. I sometimes forget Nemesis is the 10th film, partly because they had stopped numbering them. I always refer to as "Nemesis" and forget about the X. I have to admit I always liked little directorial touches like that, even if it comes across as a bit corny--and of course I totally missed it in this case ;).

    Yeah, I got the Blu-Ray collection of the 4 TNG movies last year and the sound work is really good on Nemesis. I loved that final battle scene between the Enterprise and Scimitar. It's a battle scene some Star Trek fans have been clamoring for years for. A sustained, intense battle in 3 dimensions using all the ships armaments, including the infrequently seen phaser banks on other parts of the ship. And the collision scene was well done, and the sound was intense there.

    This and TMP were two of the non-ILM Trek films where the special effects I thought were pretty well done. Though Insurrection was competently done for a non-ILM Trek film as well. I have some issues with Insurrection, but I can't say the special effects there were a major issue.

    Yeah, the dune buggy scene was a big fail for me as well. But I never had an issue with the rest of the film really. Like Smellnet, along with First Contact, it was one of 2 TNG films that felt like, well films. I've noticed even some Nemesis-haters acknowledge that yes, while they hate it, it does feel like a motion picture and not some 2 hour episode of the TV series.

    Nemesis has always ranked 2nd for me among the 4 TNG films. I absolutely loved FC--partly because the Borg were one of my favorite villains and something about that film added another layer of creepiness to the Borg that I loved.

    Overall Nemesis ranks as a middle of the road Trek film among the 13 for me. But I never understood the hate. At least here on TrekBBS I've learned there are some fans who like Nemesis. When I used to frequent the trekmovie site I felt like I was a lone wolf. Nemesis was trashed repeatedly over there.

    Re: the fight scene between Riker and the Viceroy I have mixed feelings about that. Some complain about Riker taking on the Viceroy and then kicking him to his death. But I take a different view on that. Partly because his wife was mind-raped by the Viceroy. That's visceral. Ask any husband who's wife or significant other was raped what they would do and it causes a primal reaction. You'd want to squeeze the life out of the perpetrator there. The viceroy hurt his wife, violated her. He wanted revenge. Now that may not be very Starfleety--but I found it to be a very human reaction.

    And then the final scene when they are remembering Data. I admit I found some of the reactions a bit too somber, except Troi--which makes sense, as an empathy she would be acutely aware of the sad emotions on the ship including her own. One exception I actually really liked is when Riker was trying to remember the tune Data was whistling when he first met him on the holodeck. I very much liked that he could not recall the exact tune. I know myself sometimes I remember things like that, but not the finer details. I thought that was actually a nice touch. Actually NOT remembering something to the last detail.
    Smellmet likes this.
  16. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

    Feb 10, 2002
    Los Angeles
    I never disliked Nemesis, it was OK. But it did have pacing problems with too many talky scenes. That’s why they deleted some of those talky scenes. Script writer Logan acknowledged this in an interview. Reinserting those scenes may provide better character moments but makes the pacing worse. And pacing problems are more of a an issue in the initial viewing. That’s why they release the long versions of movies later.

    The dark lighting didn’t bother me, but I liked how they went ultra bright with the car chase scene, created a good contrast.
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Aug 26, 2003
    The buggy ride is quite agreeable as a plot element as well IMHO.

    That is, the plot would benefit from there having been a buggy ride, even if this only ever got mentioned in dialogue and never actually shot. It is rather vital for Shinzon's plot that Picard not stop to think after finding B4, after all. And it is pretty clear Shinzon was the one to bury the android for Picard to find, in a fashion that would cater for the native ambush regardless of whether Picard used the buggy, just the shuttle, or the transporter.

    The heroes who know their stuff think the natives should not be there, in the middle of nowhere. Odds are, then, that Shinzon put them there. They fire at Picard for several minutes, never scoring a hit - obviously their intent, as this would not be possible by accident. Heck, their opening volley should have finished off the entire away team, but stopped just short of Picard with the marksmanlike accuracy one would expect from a well-prepared ambush. Which necessitates cooperation with the guy who buried the android...

    Why send the natives? To shock Picard into not thinking this B4 business through, ensuring the android ends up on the starship and gets to spend time there. Beaming him up intact would also be less effective than literally making him a puzzle the heroes are tempted to immediately assemble.

    It's a pretty good James Bond villain ploy in retrospect, one that grows on me with rewatching, and a doubly appropriate action scene at a time where the plot calls for one, both on-universe and out of it.

    Now, my gripe is with that which follows. A wait of seventeen hours? This is not plausible in any sense. No hero would remain inactive for that long, nor awake and alert, pacing the bridge. Picard would be in bed when the call finally comes through - or then launching an infiltration mission, or commanding the ship away from Romulus just to see what the new Praetor does, or something else than just. standing. there. The illogic paints him as a wimp, in addition to negating the plot value of the buggy scene.

    This is a case of the writers playing the "insert x" game, like they usually do with technobabble. Now, most of the babble is fine here. But x=17 is just idiocy.

    Timo Saloniemi
    Smellmet likes this.
  18. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    Enterprise bowling alley
    I feel the same way.
  19. PCz911

    PCz911 Captain Captain

    Jan 26, 2014
    Wow. The screen test is amazing. The final film, not so much
    lurok likes this.
  20. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 26, 2007
    Maryland, USA
    The problem is that the buggy scene makes no logical sense on several levels.

    First, Shinzon needs Picard's blood to survive. As in, pronto. So what was the point in wasting time sending Picard on a wild goose-chase on some alien planet, driving around collecting android parts? Why didn't he just put B4 intact floating in space right in the Enterprise's path toward Romulus? Plus, how did Shinzon know that Picard et. al would even reassemble B4 once they got him? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the android intact from the start?

    Second, as the first: Shinzon needs Picard's blood to survive. Pronto. So why put Picard in danger by being shot at by hostile alien natives on said unnecessary goose-chase? What if one of the natives shot and killed Picard? Where would Shinzon be then? It would be one thing if the natives were just playing along with Shinzon's ruse and had no intention of killing anyone, but that was not what was shown. And furthermore, there would be no reason for Shinzon to send out fake natives in the first place. That would only slow Picard down, and as I keep repeating, SHINZON NEEDS PICARD'S BLOOD, PRONTO.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019