Illogical comic book logic

[Anwar]

I have to wonder though just how Bruce's trauma was so deep. I mean, look at Spider-Man. He lost his father-figure at a young age to a criminal, and he was actually RESPONSIBLE for what happened to him, yet he didn't allow it to turn him into a madman. He has genuine normal friends and even (was) married. So I don't see why Bruce became a lunatic while Peter didn't.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, first off, we've established that Bruce is not a "madman" or a "lunatic." He doesn't meet any of the diagnostic or legal criteria for insanity, and his adoption of a costumed crimefighting career is actually fairly normative behavior in the context of the DC Universe. He is troubled, obsessive, driven, single-minded, fixated, but not insane.

Second, Peter was fifteen when he lost his uncle, and he had the loving support of Aunt May. Bruce was seven to ten years old (depending on the version) when he had both his parents ripped from him, and though in some versions he was raised by Leslie Thompkins and in others by Alfred, it still wouldn't have been the same. (Yes, Peter lost both his birth parents, but it happened when he was too young to remember them.)

Third, unlike Peter, Bruce directly witnessed the murders. They happened right in front of him. That's bound to be more traumatic.

Fourth, Bruce was a pampered rich child who was exposed to the concept of loss very suddenly and drastically. Peter was a bullied, unpopular student and his family never had much, so he was more accustomed to dealing with setbacks in life and using humor to cushion his psyche. So he just had better defense mechanisms when the tragedy happened. Bruce had to build a whole set of defense mechanisms from scratch after the tragedy, and those defenses were shaped by the tragedy and by the dark, dangerous world it forced him to discover. As such, his coping mechanisms are somewhat more drastic.

Fifth is environment. Peter found himself facing a New York that wasn't too different from the real one, maybe a little cleaner and nicer in some ways, and that already had its share of costumed adventurers to help keep it safe. As Bruce grew up, he saw Gotham becoming increasingly plagued with corruption, violence, suffering, and despair, and the authorities who were supposed to fix things were an integral part of the problem. So he would've grown up with more of a siege mentality.

Sixth, maybe they were just different personalities intrinsically. Some people are predisposed to depression and a more cynical worldview, others predisposed toward a more optimistic approach. Bruce probably would've grown up to be intensely focused, serious, and driven about his undertakings even if he hadn't suffered a tragedy.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, an interesting thing to note is that in all the "Peter stops Ben's murder" stories Peter does become a corrupt and nasty individual. I actually think Peter is predisposed to being selfish and arrogant, but Ben's murder is what steered him off that path into the much more altruistic and responsible man he is now. It's a nice touch that furthered showed that Marvel's heroes were a different breed than DC archetypal ones.

It's possible that Bruce may have become a good, but naive person who may have wanted to help others but didn't know how to properly.

There was one such story where the Waynes weren't murdered and decided to go live in Europe since they thought Gotham wasn't worth living in anymore. Bruce ended up married to a reformed Selina, and he was a good person but he wasn't a very effective one nor did he think of how to help Gotham.

It was an interesting read, the point of it was that Bruce's life would've been much better without Batman, as would Selina's. But everyone else he cared about...not so much.

 

[Christopher]

On the other hand, of course, there's Alan Brennert's classic "To Kill a Legend," where the Phantom Stranger gives Batman a chance to visit an alternate reality 20 years behind Earth-One (just as Earth-One was 20 years behind Earth-Two) and prevent the Waynes' murder. He succeeds, but that Earth's young Bruce is inspired to emulate the bat-costumed hero who rescued his parents and grows up to become Batman anyway, a Batman based on hope rather than pain.

 

[Anwar]

I have to wonder what would have happened to Clark if the Kents had been the ones gunned down when he was a boy...

 

[Admiral_Young]

He becomes Bat-Supes!!! I believe there was an Elseworlds tale done on this question already.

 

[JoeZhang]

^Well, first off, we've established that Bruce is not a "madman" or a "lunatic." He doesn't meet any of the diagnostic or legal criteria for insanity, and his adoption of a costumed crimefighting career is actually fairly normative behavior in the context of the DC Universe. He is troubled, obsessive, driven, single-minded, fixated, but not insane.

That's not quite the case - the highly visible storyline "Bruce Wayne: Murderer" was based around the murder of a woman with a gun that Bruce Wayne owned. Why did Bruce own a gun? Because a giant six-foot Batman told him to buy it (Bruce actually forgets he bought it and goes to the Bat-cave to plead with his imagination that he doesn't need a gun).

 

[Christopher]

^That sounds utterly ridiculous. Was that a Morrison story? I'm really not fond of his take on Batman.

And, umm, how is a six-foot Batman "giant" when Bruce Wayne is 6'2" even without the bat ears?

 

[JoeZhang]

^That sounds utterly ridiculous. Was that a Morrison story? I'm really not fond of his take on Batman.

And, umm, how is a six-foot Batman "giant" when Bruce Wayne is 6'2" even without the bat ears?

Opps I meant sixteen foot - I can't remember the writer but it was part of the wide-line crossover - after Bruce Wayne is convicted of murder, he can't explain to Oracle or anyone else why he owns a gun. I guess "The voices in my head told me to" isn't what anyone wants to hear...

 

[Lapis Exilis]

I have to wonder though just how Bruce's trauma was so deep. I mean, look at Spider-Man. He lost his father-figure at a young age to a criminal, and he was actually RESPONSIBLE for what happened to him, yet he didn't allow it to turn him into a madman. He has genuine normal friends and even (was) married. So I don't see why Bruce became a lunatic while Peter didn't.

Ultimately they are who they are because they're written that way. As comics have evolved, the various DC superheroes, who in the 40s had fairly interchangeable personalities, have been differentiated by giving them distinctive personality traits. (The Marvel heroes, mostly developed in the 60s, were generally more individualistic from their inceptions).

Batman (dark and disturbed) developed in many ways as a foil to Superman (sunny boy scout), despite the fact that if you look at the 1930s stories, Supes dropped slum lords off buildings while Batman wasn't above gunning someone down. But in the 40s, 50s and 60s, both were rather generic heroic personalities - kind, stalwart and incorruptible. The version of Batman the madman developed almost entirely after Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns portrayed him as a soul that had become deeply tortured after a long retirement. Prior to that the point was continually made in stories that Bruce Wayne was an extremely calm and rational figure, more akin to Sherlock Holmes in a cape than anything else. In that era he experienced deep grief over the loss of his parents, but it was not presented as something that had driven him over, or even close to, the edge. Since Miller however, the trend has been to play Batman as nearly psychotic in his obsessiveness and paranoia. It was a fun break with tradition when Miller did it - now it's become kind of tiresome in its own right.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I like how Christopher assumes that Bruce Wayne:Murderer is a Grant Morrison story because it deals with a gun. No it was just one in a long line of 2000's year long crossover storylines and actually is quite interesting. It also introduced the character of Sasha Bordeaux who is ordered by Lucius Fox to become Bruce Wayne's bodyguard after an attack on him. During their close contact Sasha and Bruce fall in love with each other and Sasha finds out that he's Batman and wants her to train him which he refuses to do. Later developments would ruin the character for me but I digress.

 

[Christopher]

I like how Christopher assumes that Bruce Wayne:Murderer is a Grant Morrison story because it deals with a gun.

There is absolutely nothing in what I said that could lead any fair-minded observer to that conclusion. I asked if it was Morrison (I did not assume, I asked) because the idea of Bruce having visions of some alternate personality making him do things he couldn't remember seemed similar in its concept and its extremity to the sort of things Morrison seems to have been doing with the character in recent years. I wasn't thinking about the gun at all, because I'm a real human being and not the simplistic caricature you insultingly assume I am.

 

[Admiral_Young]

My apologies then Christopher...I mistakenly thought you were ahem referring to our previous disagreements regarding Morrison's work. Now that I know I was wrong and you aren't...

I suppose that Bruce Wayne:Murderer and Bruce Wayne:Fugitive might be most known for is the deterioration of the Bruce Wayne persona to the degree where Bruce decides to almost forego it altogether. There is this really great scene where he's incarcerated and sees the Bat signal from his jail cell but obviously can't respond to it, the sheer anger and frustration emanating from the character really touches the reader (at least it did to me). This aspect was revisited when Jezebel Jet discovers Bruce's identity during the "Black Glove" storyline. One of the most profound panels for me personally. Eventually at the end of the crossover Bruce realizes his mistake at pushing away all of his allies and trying to do this alone cost him his humanity and vows to them that he'll never allow himself to get that far gone again. It is his mistake as Bruce Wayne that nearly cost him his career as Batman. It was an interesting story but overly long and most of it unnecessary.

 

[Christopher]

^Okay, that seems to be saying, not that "Batman is insane," but that the normally sane Batman went to a bad place by pushing his support system away and maybe temporarily suffered a mental disorder as a result, but eventually recovered. That's something I can buy.

See, this is why it's useless, even harmful, to classify mental illness in such a simplistic way as "sane" versus "insane." The mind is like any other part of the body -- it can have varying degrees of health or fitness, and sometimes it suffers injury or illness and needs medical care, but with proper care it can heal and recover. The analogy works well for Batman as well. Physically, he drives himself extremely hard and his body endures considerable strain and frequent injury, and is probably in pain on a fairly constant basis, but his fitness, conditioning, and medical care enable him to recover and continue to function at a high level. So while in some senses, his body is in worse condition than most people's, in other ways it's simultaneously in much better condition than just about anybody's. Now, there's no question that his lifestyle entails considerable psychological stresses as well, and so his mind has probably suffered a similar number of insults and scars as his body, and that means it doesn't always purr along smoothly. But that doesn't mean it isn't able to recover and continue to function. Both mentally and physically, he constantly bears pain and scarring and strain, yet he copes with it, pushes through it, and maintains his fitness.

So saying "Batman is insane" is as nonsensical as saying "Batman is crippled." The fact is, he endures traumas that would cripple most people physically or mentally, yet he remains unbroken by them. And when he is broken, he finds ways to put himself back together again.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I agree that Bruce isn't insane, he's traumatized to a large degree and has allowed that trauma to define him but he's still capable of making decisions and devising plans on a large scale basis without his mind being effected. I count it a testament to his sheer will power and training that his mind hasn't completely broken down.

Not to get into a Morrison debate again but part of Dr. Hurt's plan was to exploit a mind experimentation process that Batman volunteered for back in the early years of his career. Hurt was in charge of the program and was able to exploit the hibernating Batman and learn his identity and put into motion his grand plan to destroy Batman. It is rather complex and one needs to read the story a few times to fully wrap their minds around it but I love Morrison's work and am very passionate about it and can't really debate with any sort of impartiality lol.

I suppose that I find all aspects and takes on Batman to be considered legitimate explorations of the character.

Speaking of comic book logic...I'm really gonna have a wonderful time trying to explain to my engineer best friend the concept of the alien science in "Green Lantern". He makes fun of Superman so I know he's going to bug me on purpose about GL after we see it next year.

 

[Christopher]

I am a little concerned about how they'll handle the ring constructs in Green Lantern. A guy making a giant boxing glove or crowbar out of green light is something that could look kind of silly in a live-action film if it weren't done just right.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yep...that's exactly what I'm dreading having to explain to my friend lol.

 

[Anwar]

Eh, if folks can handle Star Wars' "Laser Swords" then they can handle a guy who can make a "Laser anything" with his ring.

 

[Admiral_Young]

No but see that's where my friend would argue about the science and tech. He as a scientist and an engineer that isn't a fan of comic books has a hard time trying to comprehend a "realistic" world that has fantastical science. I'm not explaining his point of view very well but basically he has a problem with Superman shooting lasers out of his eyes and flying. He can't comprehend how that is possible.

 

[Anwar]

See, it's people like your friend who would've advocated for that "Darker and Edgier" Superman movie where he had no Superpowers before we found out Zack Snyder was making it.