If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the same.

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

That would matter if time travel itself were what created the universes - but, according to Data in "Parallels", "Anything that can happen does happen, in alternate quantum realities". It's the same as stopping a crime in the present - history will branch with one where you succeed and one where you fail, with infinite subsequent branches. Should you not bother because you ultimately fail in half the possible outcomes?

 

[Captrek]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Fail in some, succeed in others. Where do you gets this “half” notion?

 

[UFO]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

That would matter if time travel itself were what created the universes - but, according to Data in "Parallels", "Anything that can happen does happen, in alternate quantum realities". It's the same as stopping a crime in the present - history will branch with one where you succeed and one where you fail, with infinite subsequent branches. Should you not bother because you ultimately fail in half the possible outcomes?

True, time travel doesn’t directly create new universes. Presumably the way reality reacts to the appearance of the time traveller does that (its just another thing that could go either way). But if you don’t travel in the first place, one less thing will be added to the list of "Anything that can happen". And therefore one less opportunity for branching. In other words if Nero hadn’t gone back in time, while the prime universe would still be branching all over the place for numerous other reasons, his particular branch couldn’t have happened and therefore wouldn’t have happened. As I see it, the same would be true of a time cop. They would never have a chance to correct the problem they are trying to fix. At best they would fix a copy of the problem (in a new universe of, effectively, their own making). In a branching universe there is no point in trying to fix history.

Fail in some, succeed in others. Where do you gets this “half” notion?

Yes. Its an interesting assumption that no matter how "likely" something is, an equal number of universes will be created where it does or doesn't happen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

That would matter if time travel itself were what created the universes - but, according to Data in "Parallels", "Anything that can happen does happen, in alternate quantum realities". It's the same as stopping a crime in the present - history will branch with one where you succeed and one where you fail, with infinite subsequent branches. Should you not bother because you ultimately fail in half the possible outcomes?

True, time travel doesn’t directly create new universes. Presumably the way reality reacts to the appearance of the time traveller does that (its just another thing that could go either way). But if you don’t travel in the first place, one less thing will be added to the list of "Anything that can happen". And therefore one less opportunity for branching. In other words if Nero hadn’t gone back in time, while the prime universe would still be branching all over the place for numerous other reasons, his particular branch couldn’t have happened and therefore wouldn’t have happened. As I see it, the same would be true of a time cop. They would never have a chance to correct the problem they are trying to fix. At best they would fix a copy of the problem (in a new universe of, effectively, their own making). In a branching universe there is no point in trying to fix history.

I see your point, but time cops don't necessarily travel back to thwart problems with the timeline - in "Cold Front", Daniels was posing as the guy who brought Archer his meals, and seemingly had been on board since Enterprise's launch. He was already in place to help when trouble started.

Of course, this going back to before the trouble started would branch the timeline just the same. And I have no idea how the multiverse would decide which version of the past the hostile time traveller would appear in.

Fail in some, succeed in others. Where do you gets this “half” notion?

Yes. Its an interesting assumption that no matter how "likely" something is, an equal number of universes will be created where it does or doesn't happen.

At it's most basic, I was assuming a time track A, with success and time track B, with faliure - both eventually branching into infinity. So, half. Sort of.

 

[UFO]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I see your point, but time cops don't necessarily travel back to thwart problems with the timeline - in "Cold Front", Daniels was posing as the guy who brought Archer his meals, and seemingly had been on board since Enterprise's launch. He was already in place to help when trouble started.

Of course, this going back to before the trouble started would branch the timeline just the same. And I have no idea how the multiverse would decide which version of the past the hostile time traveller would appear in.

Well it seems to me the hostile time traveller will definitely appear in the parent universe and possibly the one the time cop "created" when they went back.

 

[Qued]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

http://seanmalstrom.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/doc-brown1.jpg?w=318&h=158

[Please don't hotlink images which are hosted on web space not your own. Thanks. - M']

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Wait wait wait....

Great scott!!

 

[Broccoli]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Timeline? This is no time to talk about time. We don't have the time!


What was I saying?

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I really dislike the loose use of language. Nero doesn't 'create' a timeline, his presence in the alternate past is one of many factors that will lead to a future that is different from the future that would have otherwise existed if he wasn't there but he IS there. In this timeline, he was always there. He hasn't created anything any more than Kirk's birth created the TOS timeline. An infinite number of other events will also affect the ultimate outcome.

 

[UncleRogi]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Wait wait wait....

Great scott!!

I dont see the Guardian anywhere, which would make this all academic...

The Guardian KNOWS all; only it isnt very forthcoming about the definition of "all"

Many such Journeys are Posibble through Me

"Lets get the hell out of here"

(transporter chime)

 

[Broccoli]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I really dislike the loose use of language. Nero doesn't 'create' a timeline, his presence in the alternate past is one of many factors that will lead to a future that is different from the future that would have otherwise existed if he wasn't there but he IS there. In this timeline, he was always there. He hasn't created anything any more than Kirk's birth created the TOS timeline. An infinite number of other events will also affect the ultimate outcome.

The makers of the movie seem to disagree with you.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I really dislike the loose use of language. Nero doesn't 'create' a timeline, his presence in the alternate past is one of many factors that will lead to a future that is different from the future that would have otherwise existed if he wasn't there but he IS there. In this timeline, he was always there. He hasn't created anything any more than Kirk's birth created the TOS timeline. An infinite number of other events will also affect the ultimate outcome.

The makers of the movie seem to disagree with you.

Not at all; they just like to give the impression that something stupendous and unusual is happening to ramp up the drama. The destruction of a planet is dramatic and time travel is unusual but Nero's actions are no more important to the universe than that butterfly's wings flapping.

Don't take Spock Prime's senile ramblings in a chilly cave as scientific fact. His comment about the universe trying to fix things was just a thinly disguised excuse for lazy writing. In the next universe over, Kirk froze to death on Delta Vega and in the one next to that, Kirk killed Spock and ate him - probably joined by Scotty and Keenser - they hadn't had a burger in six months!

 

[Set Harth]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Not at all; they just like to give the impression that something stupendous and unusual is happening to ramp up the drama.

No, they actually disagree with you. They've said so. If you're suggesting they don't believe what they claim to believe, you know you have no way of proving that.

Don't take Spock Prime's senile ramblings in a chilly cave as scientific fact.

OOU sources such as Orci's statements or the above diagram don't qualify as Spock Prime's senile ramblings.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Wait wait wait....
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac330/KingDaniel01/stotimeline.jpg
Great scott!!

I dont see the Guardian anywhere, which would make this all academic...

The Guardian KNOWS all; only it isnt very forthcoming about the definition of "all"

Many such Journeys are Posibble through Me

"Lets get the hell out of here"

(transporter chime)

Plus, ST Online is an alternate timeline in and of itself.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

I really dislike the loose use of language. Nero doesn't 'create' a timeline, his presence in the alternate past is one of many factors that will lead to a future that is different from the future that would have otherwise existed if he wasn't there but he IS there. In this timeline, he was always there. He hasn't created anything any more than Kirk's birth created the TOS timeline. An infinite number of other events will also affect the ultimate outcome.

But Nero's arrival in the past (or, at least, the "lightning storm in space" heralding the opening of the black hole) is the very first difference. In branch A, Nero appears, leading to the events of STXI. In branch B, he doesn't, leading to TOS and the future he and Spock travelled back from.

There may be infinite variations where they wear different socks, but for reasons of comparison, Nero's arrival is what starts everything on a different path.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Not at all; they just like to give the impression that something stupendous and unusual is happening to ramp up the drama.

No, they actually disagree with you. They've said so. If you're suggesting they don't believe what they claim to believe, you know you have no way of proving that.

Don't take Spock Prime's senile ramblings in a chilly cave as scientific fact.

OOU sources such as Orci's statements or the above diagram don't qualify as Spock Prime's senile ramblings.

Fair enough. However, I have no problem ignoring the senile ramblings of the writers either, especially when you consider just how inconsistent Trek has been throughout it's history. Sci fi writers often make scientific mistakes but that doesn't automatically mean that the laws of physics were actively intended to be changing in the fictional universe. Where you have several, inconsistent methods of time travel you should pick the one that is consistent with the most material. Like it or loathe it, many worlds as portrayed in Parallels can trump everything else because it still fits if you ignore what the characters and writers said and apply the rules objectively.

Characters on screen can express incorrect opinons or reach incorrect hypotheses because they are absent crucial pieces of information - comic books have used the same devices to 'resurrect' characters that were previously supposed to have been killed for decades. In one universe, Greedo shot first; in another, he didn't. The fact that the writers also believed the incorrect information at the time they wrote the stories doesn't really impact on my own certainty or moral superioity.

I understand why a lot of people are unhappy to think this way - it really kills the romance. Kirk and Spock allowed Keeler to die just so they could get back to their own universe. That's not noble at all. And I love it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Actually, when you get right down to it, they let Keeler die to placate the time donut. Otherwise, they'd have just taken her back to the future with them and lived happily ever after, with the same result.

 

[Pauln6]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Actually, when you get right down to it, they let Keeler die to placate the time donut. Otherwise, they'd have just taken her back to the future with them and lived happily ever after, with the same result.

There was an off-camera scene where Kirk tried to persuade her that a universe in which girls were easy and skirts were short was a good thing and she said she'd die before she'd let that happen... which would you choose?

The Guardian was probably aware that in the universe it was planning to send them to, Keeler was going to die. They were just being fed the information for their self-fulfilling destinies.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Time Travel gives me a headache.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: If you're outside time when the universe changes... You stay the s

Plus, ST Online is an alternate timeline in and of itself.

No, it isn't. Path to 2409 is Prime timeline after the destruction of Romulus.

Where you have several, inconsistent methods of time travel you should pick the one that is consistent with the most material.

There is no reason different methods of time travel cannot coexist if based on different circumstances. Since we have never seen red matter black hole time travel before, there is zero inconsistency on the subject of how red matter black hole time travel works.