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If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done differently?

Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Trek villians have, since the beginning of the Original Series, been what "scares" us. That's why using the Borg in the books seems contrived because they are not what scares us now.

We are however scared of the "terrorist" which would mean that given today's admosphere, the Maquis might not have seemed the heros they were ment to be.

Brit
 
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Forgive me and no offence meant but you corrected nothing. You're opinion is yours and yours alone, it doesn't represent everyone.;)

I know my opinion isn't the same as everyone else's, at least not yet. But once I finish my mind control device. . . Mwaahaha! :evil:

*cough*

Anyway, it seemed to me that you were suggesting the the complaints against the catsuit was from prudish people, and that is not the way any of the complaints I have seen in the past have been expressed. I was a teenage boy when Seven first came along, and seeing her in that first silver catsuit did indeed give me yowsers in my trousers. However, I still felt like the show was being condescending by doing this and so did all my friends who watched Star Trek. Looking back now I can see that Seven was a great character, but when I watched it all I could think was that she was the boobs on the show and little else.

This is one of the reasons why I'm planning on rewatching Voyager for the first time.
In your face famale sexuality has been part of Trek since TOS. Don't tell me you've never heard of the Orion Slave Girl? Barely clad green skinned woman willing to be bought and sold to fullfill your darkest sexual fantasies.
Bare mid-drifted well toned women of the "Mirror, Mirror" universe.
Troi in a full body leotard w/ visable camel toe.

Those were Roddenberry's ideas.
It's time fans accepted Seven of Nine's catsuit plays along those same ideas. I'm sure Trek fans that witnessed Kirk & Uhura's kiss were just as offended as some are about the catsuit. We evolved beyond that type of thinking, we can evolved beyond and come to accept this one too.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

It's time fans accepted Seven of Nine's catsuit plays along those same ideas. I'm sure Trek fans that witnessed Kirk & Uhura's kiss were just as offended as some are about the catsuit. We evolved beyond that type of thinking, we can evolved beyond and come to accept this one too.

You are equating my desire not to be condescended to with racism? :rolleyes:

*sigh* You will never understand unless you open your mind and let yourself. You are intentionally misrepresenting my position and arguing against something which I'm not even saying, so I'll say it one more time:

I am not opposed to sexuality on Trek. I often think that Trek needs more sexuality, but it needs to be explored in an adult way and not as a blatant ratings ploy.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

It's time fans accepted Seven of Nine's catsuit plays along those same ideas. I'm sure Trek fans that witnessed Kirk & Uhura's kiss were just as offended as some are about the catsuit. We evolved beyond that type of thinking, we can evolved beyond and come to accept this one too.

You are equating my desire not to be condescended to with racism? :rolleyes:

*sigh* You will never understand unless you open your mind and let yourself. You are intentionally misrepresenting my position and arguing against something which I'm not even saying, so I'll say it one more time:

I am not opposed to sexuality on Trek. I often think that Trek needs more sexuality, but it needs to be explored in an adult way and not as a blatant ratings ploy.
Nobody is talking about just you, stop taking everything as personal. I said "fans" as in plural/mulitipule, I said nothing about you or your ideas about it.

As far as opinning my mind, I'm not the one claiming offence at woman in a catsuit.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Well...

I would have more issues with the ship, dealing with shortages and repair issues. The ship at the beginning should look totally different than the ship at the end. Hell, destroy the original ship and commandeer an alien ship!

It would be darker, not as dark as Ransom and his crew, but there would be situations where you don't do the right thing and that should be carried forward. For example, you could help stop a huge disaster but you don't because there is a risk to the crew, and you cannot replace your crewmember so you opt not to help and move on.

I'd have gotten rid of Kes and brought on a revamped Seven Of Nine. Not 34 Of DD, but a different actress and developed her character differently. Kes would have gotten a better sendoff and while I enjoyed the Angry Kes Of Doom episode many did not so if we brought her back it would be done totally differently.

Just some quick ideas, I'll flesh them more later.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

There are a lot of good ideas coming through in here, actually. In my previous post, I mentioned just what I'd do to the ship and crew as a whole, but I've given more thought to the specific cast.

To begin, in the pilot, Janeway wouldn't have been the Captain but the Chief Science Officer - we've seen that Janeway had a love of the sciences, so it seems an appropriate place for her. But when the Caretaker pulls them to the Delta Quadrant, the Captain and first officer would be killed. This leaves Janeway the highest ranking officer, and thus, makes her the Captain. She'd be pressed into the role of captain without having prepared for it.

Chakotay would have been a bit darker, and possibily a bit older, mid-to-late forties, maybe. He was a Commander in Starfleet before he joined the Maquis, so with the Voyager the intact ship and Janeway having taken command (because he is a wanted criminal, so she's not going to turn Federation property over to him to do with as he pleases), he's somewhat bitter - she hasn't had the training to be captain, she hasn't been in charge of anything larger than a science team!

B'Elanna would have been basically unchanged. She hates her Klingon half for making her different among her human companions during her childhood, but that same Klingon side has come to hate the human side for its weakness. It might have been an opportunity to play with the idea of certain psychological disorders, like schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder - both sides of B'Elanna hate the other.

Likewise, Tom would be about the same, having the same back story. The only real difference I might give him is that he'd be bisexual - he's established as a womanizer and a flirt on the show, the only difference is that he'd have no problems with doing the same with men that he does with women.

Harry would be forced to grow up, no question. A major plot for him would be his needing to prove why this freshly graduated Ensign is a member of the senior staff - like I said before, the other crewmen, from both Maquis and Starfleet would resent him being there. And on top of that... I think I'd have him come to realize he's gay, since his home life kinda lends itself to a 'repressed homosexuality' story - he's the only child of an older couple, so he's felt a lot of pressure to marry and continue the family line. So he's repressed his feelings for what he thinks his parents want - him to marry a nice girl and have some kids. Whether or not his parents actually feel that way, I don't know. But Tom would be the one to coax him out of trying to make his parents happy at the expense of his own happiness, and maybe things between the two would develop into a relationship.

Tuvok would be more of a counselor and mentor to the crew - he's over a century old, and would have spent a great deal of time around the more emotional species, so he'd have great experience understanding what makes them tick. He'd also often be called in as a mediator amongst the crew disputes - they'd be at each other's thraots, so he'd have to try and keep them working together instead of killing each other.

I'd really emphasize that the crew starts out treating the Doctor as little more than a tool - even after he begins developing towards independence and sentience, they'd still casually turn him off just because he's bothering them and when his program malfunctions, they'd be willing to delete some of the interests he's developed from his memory, citing that they need the storage space those files are taking up. Much like in the series, it'd be Kes pushing for him to develop beyond just his program, and she'd work among the crew to get them to see him as a thinking and living being, not just a tool.

Speaking of Kes, like I said before, I'd keep her on board following the arrival of Seven, but I would drop the idea of her species only living nine years - it's an interesting idea, but it's more restraining for the character and isn't viable for a humanoid species, IMO. I like the idea that was suggested above, about how Kes would be a medical prodigy and outgrow the Doctor's medical skill, leading to the Doctor being deactivated for a while - I think Kes would feel guilty about replacing her one-time mentor, and keep him running.

Again, I think Neelix's purpose was really finished following the third season - he was the crew's guide through unfamiliar space, but they'd journeyed past the area of space he traveled in. That's why I think that, if they had to cut a character following the third season, it would have been better to have killed Neelix during the fight with the Borg and Species 8472 - it'd give Kes something big to deal with, since the Borg are responsible for the death of someone very close to her and here's this representative of them, now living on the ship. At first, Kes would lash out at her, but then come to realize how much of a victim Seven really was.

And I think Kes would have been a better teacher of humanity than the Doctor for Seven - the Doctor introduced her to his interests. Kes, I think would push for Seven to develop her own interests not just mimic the interests of others, which would have given Seven something that was all her own. Also, lose the catsuits - some nice civilian clothes like Kes's would have worked, or having Janeway come to grant her an honorary commission, perhaps.

One of the things I'd really want, though, is to bring the ship home about in the early to middle of the final season - while they were gone the Federation went to war - people that the crew left behind died in it. There would also be family of deceased crewmen who are pissed - why didn't their loved one survive while these others did? And, due to the idea of a more put upon Voyager, the crew would have had to made difficult choices just to survive, perhaps being forced to pirate technology and resources. Because of these things, I would expect that there would be trials and hearings on what they've done. The crew had been lost, presumed dead, for the better part of seven years - family and friends have moved on, so it would, I think, have been far better to show the homecoming and reactions than to end on the return.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

As far as opinning my mind, I'm not the one claiming offence at woman in a catsuit.

Forget it. If you're going to have that attitude then there is no use even talking to you any more.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

The truth is not an attitude.:lol:

No, what you are doing is called a strawman argument. You completely ignore what I'm actually saying because you can't argue against it, so you claim that I'm saying something completely different. I'm saying that I don't like immature sexuality as a ratings ploy, you're claiming that I'm intolerant and equated my dislike of it to the racism of the sixties. If you want to have a real back-and-forth where we listen to one another and debate the topic then I am more than willing to do that, but if you're just going to ignore what I'm saying then screw it, I'm through fighting straw men put up in my name.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Harry = Lieutenant... or even a Lieutenant Commander by the time they reach home.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

I know my opinion isn't the same as everyone else's, at least not yet. But once I finish my mind control device. . . Mwaahaha! :evil:

*cough*

:lol: Love it!

This could get...interesting.

I am not opposed to sexuality on Trek. I often think that Trek needs more sexuality, but it needs to be explored in an adult way and not as a blatant ratings ploy.

If you're saying that you're in favor of actual sex instead of the trappings of sex on Trek then I would have to say I agree with you. I know it's not popular to compare Battlestar Galactica with Trek but the characters on Battlestar are actually having sex and relationships and breakups and makeups, etc just like the rest of us do in real life. On Trek however, with the exception of couples like P/T (plus the male captains, of course) no one is actually having sex but the "trappings" like the catsuit, etc are there.

Heaven forbid they show an adult female captain actually in bed with a man. In fact, rumor has it in "Workforce" the scene with Jaffen and the blanket on the couch was originally going to be a sex scene. Then it was decided that the favored demographic couldn't handle it. Well, if I were a member of the favored demographic I would be offended at the thought I couldn't handle the real thing and could be placated with crotch shots instead.

Anyway, I'm guessing this is where you're going but if I'm wrong I blame the red wine. ;)
 
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

I have to agree that it really was an in your face blatant ploy for ratings. And hey it worked. I just would've liked to see star trek resort to a smarter way of doing it.

Yes TOS had in your face mombshells and a shirtless Kirk walking around. Where was that on Voyager? There was the sexy Seven catsuit, where were the sexy guys?? What about the female and gay/bi fans out there that have no desire to see that really? That's what bothered me, because it was a very SPECIFIC thing they wanted and not at all equal between the gender's, and hence a little sexist.

And honestly, it's the 21st century and Star Trek has been established enough over the past 40 years or so to not HAVE to resort to such tacky ratings ploys. Where was the in your face sexuality in TNG? Or the TMP era? There was a little on DS9 but I don't recall it being all that in your face. YEAH YEAH, dabo girls. But that's realistic considering what we have today, it was a buisness decision. It should have been smarter and involved something else, maybe a complicated sexual relationship between say...going with the idea that DGCATANISIRI (in his post above) had that Paris be bi.... Tom, some other guy, and seven of nine and the complications dealing with sexuality on that level. That's never been done on Star Trek and I would think would draw a level of interest greater than the obvious let's show some tits and ass.

Sex and sexuality should have a place on the show, but honestly I hold Star Trek to a higher regard than to change Janeway's hair, or show some cleavage. Do something new, something fresh to the world of Star Trek. That would be much more interesting.

AND, if you're GOING to have a tits parade each episode, then have a sexy guy parade in each episode or so, make it an even playing field at the very LEAST. It's sexist not to. And who knows you might draw in legions of fans from areas of demographics that you didn't really know about.

And honestly, believing that the catsuit is condescending equates to racsim is absoloutely rediculous. Sex has been selling for centuries, and it's not some HUGE barrier to be broken or social hurdle to overcome. It was cheap and it was kind of condescending. And in my opinion sexist.

I mean come on, playboy has been around since the 50's, BEFORE Star Trek.

I would also like to shout out that the whole harry being repressed and tom helping is a REALLY good idea. It's fresh to that world. Throw in some plotlines inovling the complications of bisexual sexual relationships and you've got some REAL meat that IS sexual, yet touches on it in a more mature and responsible way.
 
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Trek villians have, since the beginning of the Original Series, been what "scares" us. That's why using the Borg in the books seems contrived because they are not what scares us now.

We are however scared of the "terrorist" which would mean that given today's admosphere, the Maquis might not have seemed the heros they were ment to be.

Brit

I never thought of it that way before. Voyager was first televised before 9/11 but I wonder what would have been done with the Maquis if it had premiered after.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Kent, I don't think you are wrong. What I do know is that you wouldn't have been allowed to put that kind of content in Voyager at the time it was being made. That being said there is a lot of MM Voyager Slash fic being written although it's mostly written by women.

One of the things I would have done was put different colors on Seven, not that I am any great fan of the catsuit but at the very least they could have chosen more flattering colors for Jeri Ryan. She needed a navy blue or maybe a red that wasn't closer to burgundy.

Brit
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

That's a good point, i agree. If the show were launched post 9/11, they would've been more evil I agree. Not as crazy evil as the Taliban, but pretty mean.

Too bad the show was launched in 95' before 9/11 happened.

BUT if a REMAKE of Voyager were to happen...THAT would be interesting.

CALLING ALL RICH TREK FANS OUT THERE WHO WANT TO DO AN INTERNET VOYAGER REMAKE, YOU HAVE BEEN DRAFTED!!!!
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Trek villians have, since the beginning of the Original Series, been what "scares" us. That's why using the Borg in the books seems contrived because they are not what scares us now.

We are however scared of the "terrorist" which would mean that given today's admosphere, the Maquis might not have seemed the heros they were ment to be.

Brit

I never thought of it that way before. Voyager was first televised before 9/11 but I wonder what would have been done with the Maquis if it had premiered after.

I think you would have had a completely different mix of characters, and motivations.

Brit
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Kent, I don't think you are wrong. What I do know is that you wouldn't have been allowed to put that kind of content in Voyager at the time it was being made. That being said there is a lot of MM Voyager Slash fic being written although it's mostly written by women.

One of the things I would have done was put different colors on Seven, not that I am any great fan of the catsuit but at the very least they could have chosen more flattering colors for Jeri Ryan. She needed a navy blue or maybe a red that wasn't closer to burgundy.

Brit



I don't think you think i'm wrong, i'm just saying Star Trek Voyager had the potential to be a leader, like it was in the 60's. My point is they chose not to, go against what the meaning of Trek is, and go for cheap shot ratings ploys. Where is the leader that MLK JR. so loved and cherished (it was the only show he let his kids watch.)

And there were some shows out there with gay characters, like my so called life circa 1994, "Two Wong Foo Thanks for Everything Jewlie Newmar" circa 1995 which became a cult classic like Buffy became. That movie was also nominated for two Golden globe nominations, and for best picture by the GLAAD awards (that one's not a shocker I admit though.) It was also only three years later will and grace debuted and it was WILDLY successful. Voyager could've pulled it off considering the type of people that were fans, and in the process attained a new fanbase and have been one of the first shows to responsibly deal with it in the first place on a regular basis. It wasn't illegal to include that material or against any kind of rules. It was a choice.

And they did choose not to, out of fear. I wonder what would've happened if Gene Roddenberry was too scared to do that interracial kiss, or hire an Japanese american after ww2, or a black woman during the racial wars of the 60's. What would've happened....
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Here's some I ideas I have:
1. Instead of making Voyager some shiny new ship, it would a New Orleans class starship refitted as a testbed for the Intrepid class, with the interiors modified to fit with the New Orleans design. As the years go on, the ship begins to look like the new Galactica, scorched and weathered by the pummeling it has survived.
2. Janeway is a Lieutenant Commander and chief science officer, becoming the captain after the original captain and first officer die during the transit from the Badlands to the Delta Quadrant. While she is in command of the combined crew, Chakotay takes over during combat, due to his greater experience and tactical genius.
3. Have Chakotay's Native American heritage more fully integrated into his character or just get rid of it altogether.
3. Have Tom Paris be more disillusioned with both Starfleet and the Maquis, being ostracized by pretty much everybody but Harry, Neelix, and Kes at first. As he proves his worth, Tom becomes more accepted by the crew, but he keeps his distance due to his experiences with them.
4. Lon Suder is in charge of Voyager's marines, having served as Chakotay's ground strike team leader and strategist. Due to his sociopathic tendencies, people keep their distance around him, but he's less of a pariah than Tom. Due to the wonky chain of command on Voyager, Suder technically falls under Tuvok's purview, but his men often act separate of the Tactical/Security personnel, causing friction between the two.
5. Neelix is a mentally scarred war veteran who was desperately trying to find some reason to stay alive when he met Kes. While he comes off as a bit annoying, the loss of everything and everyone he knew warped his mind; he desperately clings to the crew as a surrogate family, helping him keep his grasp on reality steady.
I'll post some more in the morning.
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Kent, given the period of time during the sixties, people were actually more open to change like the interracial kiss. The first interracial kiss had to happen in the sixties, if they had waited it might have been another twenty years.

In my vision of Voyager, homosexuality does exist but it's no big thing because people have the freedom to be what they are. So if Tom were bisexual he would have lovers of both sexes and there wouldn't be any trauma because no one would think twice about it.

Brit
 
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different

Those are some nice ideas, bullethead, but I feel like some are a little too close to BSG (perhaps purposefully?)

As far as the ship, in any reimagining I think there are basically two directions to go: (1) make it a brand new, super-experimental one of a kind ship and have that be a part of why it's stranded, or (2) have it be an older ship, incidentally stranded.

If you make Voyager an older ship, I still think it should be a new design. There are plenty of older class names that have never been canonically attached to any design that could have been used. Perhaps 'Apollo' class or 'Renaissance' or similar.

Either way, I think having Janeway be science officer who takes command is a brilliant idea. I know that's been floated around here for a good long time (perhaps originally by anwar or DarKush? I'm not sure) and I think it's a brilliant one that gives the Maquis more leverage to question her, and helps make her a more interesting character overall.
 
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