If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done differently?
- Thread starter PhoenixIreland
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Understand?
You're right, I'll admit it. I am ignoring your arguement because I don't accept your single opinion speaks for everyone. I'm sorry you take offence to that. That is what I've been trying to get across to you this whole time. You can easily say I think Seven's catsuit blah, blah, blah and I can rebuttal by saying: but I think Seven's catsuit doesn't blah, blah, blah but beyond that our opinions are only our own and don't neccassarily represent those opinions of our peers.The truth is not an attitude.
No, what you are doing is called a strawman argument. You completely ignore what I'm actually saying because you can't argue against it, so you claim that I'm saying something completely different. I'm saying that I don't like immature sexuality as a ratings ploy, you're claiming that I'm intolerant and equated my dislike of it to the racism of the sixties. If you want to have a real back-and-forth where we listen to one another and debate the topic then I am more than willing to do that, but if you're just going to ignore what I'm saying then screw it, I'm through fighting straw men put up in my name.
Understand?
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Would have kept the tension between starfleet and the Maquis until season three.
The Equinox would have popped up in season 5 and their captain would have taken command of Voyager
Less Borg last episode would have been dark frontier, and used more of Species 8472 and they would be involved in the series finale.
Would made Voyager with more teeth, perhaps and Galaxy-refit or just make her slightly bigger
Would have killed of Kim
Make Seven of Nine acting ensign and give her OPS
Kes becomes the ship's Councelor
Would had Voyager return home late 6th season-early 7th season with some Ranson's courtmarshall
The ship being slightly involved in the dominion war, some DS9-VOY crossover, and would have a TNG-VOY crossover.
Perhaps giving command of Voyager to Riker, worf, or promote chakotay to captain, or introduce a new female captain.
Maquis on Voyager get immunity and given full active ranks in starfleet
Would have kept the tension between starfleet and the Maquis until season three.
The Equinox would have popped up in season 5 and their captain would have taken command of Voyager
Less Borg last episode would have been dark frontier, and used more of Species 8472 and they would be involved in the series finale.
Would made Voyager with more teeth, perhaps and Galaxy-refit or just make her slightly bigger
Would have killed of Kim
Make Seven of Nine acting ensign and give her OPS
Kes becomes the ship's Councelor
Would had Voyager return home late 6th season-early 7th season with some Ranson's courtmarshall
The ship being slightly involved in the dominion war, some DS9-VOY crossover, and would have a TNG-VOY crossover.
Perhaps giving command of Voyager to Riker, worf, or promote chakotay to captain, or introduce a new female captain.
Maquis on Voyager get immunity and given full active ranks in starfleet
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Except that's not what you did, instead you misrepresented what I was saying even though I laid it out three times. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to mangle my opinion and equate it to racism.
Seven's catsuit was a blatant attempt to capture the young male demographic, and it worked. Voyager wasn't doing well in the ratings and someone came up with the idea of getting a beautiful, busty woman and putting her in a catsuit and this coincided with a ratings boost which let Voyager stay on air for the full seven seasons. They tried it again on Enterprise to diminished returns, so they made things worse by getting T'Pol all horny on a Trellium addiction and put her in pyjamas so small they were probably made for a nine-year old. It was pathetic.
Contrast this with nuBSG. In the episode Unfinished Business there is a scene where Kara and Lee get drunk, go to a beach and have sex. There is an attractive naked woman on screen and there is an attractive naked man on screen, but it doesn't feel like a pathetic attempt to gain ratings, it felt like a true character moment because that is what it was. That is what I want to see on Trek, sexuality and relationships explored from a character perspective and not a T'n A perspective.
How does that in any way seem like racism?
Except that's not what you did, instead you misrepresented what I was saying even though I laid it out three times. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to mangle my opinion and equate it to racism.
Seven's catsuit was a blatant attempt to capture the young male demographic, and it worked. Voyager wasn't doing well in the ratings and someone came up with the idea of getting a beautiful, busty woman and putting her in a catsuit and this coincided with a ratings boost which let Voyager stay on air for the full seven seasons. They tried it again on Enterprise to diminished returns, so they made things worse by getting T'Pol all horny on a Trellium addiction and put her in pyjamas so small they were probably made for a nine-year old. It was pathetic.
Contrast this with nuBSG. In the episode Unfinished Business there is a scene where Kara and Lee get drunk, go to a beach and have sex. There is an attractive naked woman on screen and there is an attractive naked man on screen, but it doesn't feel like a pathetic attempt to gain ratings, it felt like a true character moment because that is what it was. That is what I want to see on Trek, sexuality and relationships explored from a character perspective and not a T'n A perspective.
How does that in any way seem like racism?
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
I agree as much as I love nuBSG Trek was not made to go down that same path. Roddenberry's vision was that humanity would evolve to the point where human pettiness would be a thing of the past. Encounters with aliens were how lessons applying to our lives were dramatized. On the other hand, nuBSG does not believe humanity can or has evolved and uses the survivors of a holocaust to dramatize the human condition. Both ways have their positives and negatives and I personally love them both.
As for Six vs Seven Baltar needed to be so completely seduced that he betrayed humanity so I felt it was less of a ratings ploy - the red dress served the plot.
Very well put.
I agree as much as I love nuBSG Trek was not made to go down that same path. Roddenberry's vision was that humanity would evolve to the point where human pettiness would be a thing of the past. Encounters with aliens were how lessons applying to our lives were dramatized. On the other hand, nuBSG does not believe humanity can or has evolved and uses the survivors of a holocaust to dramatize the human condition. Both ways have their positives and negatives and I personally love them both.
As for Six vs Seven Baltar needed to be so completely seduced that he betrayed humanity so I felt it was less of a ratings ploy - the red dress served the plot.
Very well put.
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
I would definately have to agree with that. He was beefy but not bloated and more manly. Wish he kept his aarogance a little bit, that's what made him hotness.
Now Nick Locarno....holy crap he was most certainly the hottest "version" of Paris LOL. And let's face it, Paris WAS Locarno with almost the exact same back story. It was so stupid that they just didn't go with Locarno.
You are absolutely correct GodBen. Star Trek had relationships, but treated them to us as if we were all children and couldn't handle it. Mostly anyway. If I recall DS9's relationship with Dax and Worf got pretty sexual, and the Klingon episode on Voyager where Neelix shacked up with that Klingon woman was pretty decent. Keep in mind the show has children watching it too that may be just a LITTLE too young for BSG type sex scenes.
However, when it comes to sexuality, that's where I feel it was dumbed down signifigantly. If you're watching star trek as a kid, you're probably smart enough to understand what gay and straight mean and the parents should explain that around puberty anyway. But I am not going too much into it, I've already made my arguments.
I would definately have to agree with that. He was beefy but not bloated and more manly. Wish he kept his aarogance a little bit, that's what made him hotness.
Now Nick Locarno....holy crap he was most certainly the hottest "version" of Paris LOL. And let's face it, Paris WAS Locarno with almost the exact same back story. It was so stupid that they just didn't go with Locarno.
Heaven forbid they show an adult female captain actually in bed with a man. In fact, rumor has it in "Workforce" the scene with Jaffen and the blanket on the couch was originally going to be a sex scene. Then it was decided that the favored demographic couldn't handle it. Well, if I were a member of the favored demographic I would be offended at the thought I couldn't handle the real thing and could be placated with crotch shots instead.
Anyway, I'm guessing this is where you're going but if I'm wrong I blame the red wine.
Don't worry, the wine didn't inebriate your senses too much.
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, I want them to explore relationships like this in a serious manner and I don't think Trek even got close to the reality. Odo/Kira was the best I think Trek has managed, but even that felt incredibly unrealistic at times. Torres/Paris wasn't too bad either, but I have problems with that as well.
Despite my joke earlier in this thread I don't want Trek to be like BSG because BSG is too dark to be a Trek series, but I would like Trek to treat relationships and sexuality in a similar way as it is on BSG. BSG still has some of Trek's problems; Six was clearly an attempt to go after the 7 of 9 demographic and that put me off the show for a long time (I only started watching it 4 months ago because I was put off by Six when I first saw it). But when it comes to the frakked up relationships of Kara and Apollo and Anders and Dee and Billy and Adama and Roslin... it feels more real, it feels like as if the writers are treating the audience as adults and that is not what happened in a lot of Trek.
You are absolutely correct GodBen. Star Trek had relationships, but treated them to us as if we were all children and couldn't handle it. Mostly anyway. If I recall DS9's relationship with Dax and Worf got pretty sexual, and the Klingon episode on Voyager where Neelix shacked up with that Klingon woman was pretty decent. Keep in mind the show has children watching it too that may be just a LITTLE too young for BSG type sex scenes.
However, when it comes to sexuality, that's where I feel it was dumbed down signifigantly. If you're watching star trek as a kid, you're probably smart enough to understand what gay and straight mean and the parents should explain that around puberty anyway. But I am not going too much into it, I've already made my arguments.
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Agreed. When I first saw 33 I hadn't seen the miniseries, so the sexcapades going on in Baltar's head just seemed gratuitous. Now that I know (and love) Baltar I realise that he is a narcissistic sex addict and Head Six was a perfect way to control him; she wasn't a real person, she was Baltar's perfect fantasy woman and so she needed that little red dress. The weird thing is that I found her far more attractive in Home Part 2 when she wore sweat-clothes and a ponytail.
Knowing the Vulcans as I do, I have a hard time believing that they forced all female officers to wear an uncomfortable-looking catsuit. It is not logical.
Agreed. When I first saw 33 I hadn't seen the miniseries, so the sexcapades going on in Baltar's head just seemed gratuitous. Now that I know (and love) Baltar I realise that he is a narcissistic sex addict and Head Six was a perfect way to control him; she wasn't a real person, she was Baltar's perfect fantasy woman and so she needed that little red dress. The weird thing is that I found her far more attractive in Home Part 2 when she wore sweat-clothes and a ponytail.
Knowing the Vulcans as I do, I have a hard time believing that they forced all female officers to wear an uncomfortable-looking catsuit. It is not logical.
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Two reasons exist for not going with Locarno - one, and most likely, was that they didn't want to pay royalties to the writers of 'The First Duty' (weren't they freelancers or something?), which they'd have to if they used a character that those writers had created, or two, that because Locarno showed no remorse for what he'd done - pressuring his friends into the manuver, causing the death of one, and covering it up until it was proven that they were lying (and primarily that last bit) - the character was irrdeemible. Tom's accident absolved him of guilt, but his own conscience had him finally come to admit it, I believe, which is why they say it's completely different (you know, in the way that little 'tss' sound makes 'Ice Ice Baby' COMPLETELY different from 'Under Pressure.')
Two reasons exist for not going with Locarno - one, and most likely, was that they didn't want to pay royalties to the writers of 'The First Duty' (weren't they freelancers or something?), which they'd have to if they used a character that those writers had created, or two, that because Locarno showed no remorse for what he'd done - pressuring his friends into the manuver, causing the death of one, and covering it up until it was proven that they were lying (and primarily that last bit) - the character was irrdeemible. Tom's accident absolved him of guilt, but his own conscience had him finally come to admit it, I believe, which is why they say it's completely different (you know, in the way that little 'tss' sound makes 'Ice Ice Baby' COMPLETELY different from 'Under Pressure.')
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
I really like all of DarKush's suggestions and now that I was reminded I would make Tom Paris Nicolas Locano and probably have him do something similar to DarKush's suggestion in order to get him onboard the ship.
I really like all of DarKush's suggestions and now that I was reminded I would make Tom Paris Nicolas Locano and probably have him do something similar to DarKush's suggestion in order to get him onboard the ship.
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
BTW, I also have no idea where you're getting racism from. In referance to homosexuality, homosexuality is a culture not a race.
It's just that simple.
I've never watched nuBSG, so I have no idea what you're talking about. However, BSG doesn't need to grab ratings like Voy. did because it's not on ratings based network TV. You're misrepesenting your own self because you insist on using your personal opinion as fact, I'm not. I'm using actual business practices and rules of the industry. Your opinions only mean something to you, they don't mean much of anything to Paramount which you agreed with by admitting it the catsuit captured its demographic audience. They didn't care what anyone found pathetic, only that you tuned in. If you watched the show all seven years, then you gave Paramount the signal that you approved of it.
BTW, I also have no idea where you're getting racism from. In referance to homosexuality, homosexuality is a culture not a race.
It's just that simple.
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Earlier, in the same thread...
It's just that simple.
Earlier, in the same thread...
exodus said:
It's just that simple.
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Yeah, it's pretty simple that it was an example of stupid things people were offended by which is pretty clear taken within the context of the debate. Had you included the entire quote instead of just two sentences from it, that point would be crystal clear.
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Your original post in full:
Nope, I'm still just seeing a random association between people who don't like the juvenile use of sexuality and the Klansmen.
We are going way off topic here, so I'm going to expand upon why I was offended by the catsuits, and the main reason why is because I was in the target demographic. I was 11 when Seven first showed up in her catsuit and I was 15 when it was repeated with T'Pol on Enterprise. It offends me because this is what they think I like. This is what they think I should like.
I liked good writing and good stories involving interesting characters, I did not like T'Pol stripping down to her undies and begging Phlox for sex. I liked being treated with respect and dignity, I did not like being treated like a horny dog.
Recently I have been watching old episodes of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe, and in one episode he explored TV aimed at teenagers. To get their views on the subject he got a group of teenagers and showed them some shows designed for a teenage audience as well as a documentary called The Power of Nightmares. I recommend watching it here, the focus group bit begins at 4:33 and there is a really interesting point made by a young man 7:21 while pretty much encapsulates what I' trying to get at here.
(As a matter of record, I actually did watch The Power of Nightmares when I was 18 and thoroughly enjoyed it.)
Your original post in full:
Nope, I'm still just seeing a random association between people who don't like the juvenile use of sexuality and the Klansmen.
We are going way off topic here, so I'm going to expand upon why I was offended by the catsuits, and the main reason why is because I was in the target demographic. I was 11 when Seven first showed up in her catsuit and I was 15 when it was repeated with T'Pol on Enterprise. It offends me because this is what they think I like. This is what they think I should like.
I liked good writing and good stories involving interesting characters, I did not like T'Pol stripping down to her undies and begging Phlox for sex. I liked being treated with respect and dignity, I did not like being treated like a horny dog.
Recently I have been watching old episodes of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe, and in one episode he explored TV aimed at teenagers. To get their views on the subject he got a group of teenagers and showed them some shows designed for a teenage audience as well as a documentary called The Power of Nightmares. I recommend watching it here, the focus group bit begins at 4:33 and there is a really interesting point made by a young man 7:21 while pretty much encapsulates what I' trying to get at here.
(As a matter of record, I actually did watch The Power of Nightmares when I was 18 and thoroughly enjoyed it.)
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
One idea mentioned was keeping the Maquis out of starfleet uniforms for awhile. It would have made more sense for them to stay a seperate group from the begining as each camp tried to get along. Maybe have some disaster make the two crews realize they have to integrate?
Logical progression in rank. Kim can NOT stay a Ensign for seven years....
TAKE THE REPLICATORS OUT OF THE PICTURE. No replicators=no squeaky clean Voyager. Creates dramatic tension as crew struggles to keep ship going & incorperates acquired technology. Ideally Voyager would be a VERY different ship when they got home.
More shipboard romances & breakups. Again, it's SEVEN YEARS. There is going to be drama, love, loss etc etc. Show it more!
One idea mentioned was keeping the Maquis out of starfleet uniforms for awhile. It would have made more sense for them to stay a seperate group from the begining as each camp tried to get along. Maybe have some disaster make the two crews realize they have to integrate?
Logical progression in rank. Kim can NOT stay a Ensign for seven years....
TAKE THE REPLICATORS OUT OF THE PICTURE. No replicators=no squeaky clean Voyager. Creates dramatic tension as crew struggles to keep ship going & incorperates acquired technology. Ideally Voyager would be a VERY different ship when they got home.
More shipboard romances & breakups. Again, it's SEVEN YEARS. There is going to be drama, love, loss etc etc. Show it more!
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
- The Starfleet/Maquis tension would have lasted a little longer.
- B'Elanna would have not lost her brains just because Seven came onboard.
- A B'Elanna/Seven centered episode where they have to come to the terms of their dislike for each other (or mostly from B'Elanna's side)
- Janeway/B'Elanna episode - because Mulgrew and Dawson have an amazing chemistry.
- Less relying on Borg technology.
- Seven's transformation from drone to "almost-human" would have taken almost entire Season 4 instead of one episode.
- More Chakotay character development.
- They would have not made it back home in the finale - it would have improved the Voyager relaunch books. Voyager was about the journey, not about them shattering around the Alpha Quadrant.
Just to name a few.
- The Starfleet/Maquis tension would have lasted a little longer.
- B'Elanna would have not lost her brains just because Seven came onboard.
- A B'Elanna/Seven centered episode where they have to come to the terms of their dislike for each other (or mostly from B'Elanna's side)
- Janeway/B'Elanna episode - because Mulgrew and Dawson have an amazing chemistry.
- Less relying on Borg technology.
- Seven's transformation from drone to "almost-human" would have taken almost entire Season 4 instead of one episode.
- More Chakotay character development.
- They would have not made it back home in the finale - it would have improved the Voyager relaunch books. Voyager was about the journey, not about them shattering around the Alpha Quadrant.
Just to name a few.
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Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
Agreed for the most part, particularly the idea of the two crews not integrating immediately, which IIRC was a studio mandate to make the show easier to tune-in to on the part of the casual viewer. Ridiculous. I mean, by the end of the pilot everyone was in a uniform like they had all gone to the Academy. Uh, ok.
And especially agreed to the replicators. The writers tried to have it both ways - they wanted replicators and holodecks, but tried to imply that the crew could use them less due to power rationing (at least in the first few seasons, until this was apparently forgotten entirely.) Yet even when this was supposed to be the case, it didn't really seem like they used them that much less than TNG, except for the appearance of Neelix's dishes, which still didn't feel much like rationing. Here was an opportunity to take away some comforts and make the crew more uncomfortable and create more drama that was lost.
There should have been more romances too but they also should have better handled the idea of this being a unique situation. Starfleet's never really seemed to have a problem with fraternization (except the Captain, but even then examples like Picard and Neela Darren come to mind) but here in this group of 150 people, taking into account the extended human lifespan, one could easily go through almost every suitable mate on the ship on the way home, and the crew could end up one gigantic intermarried family.
I think these are all good points that everyone can generally agree on, particularly with regard to B'Elanna. She was a genius in the first few seasons, and then it seemed Seven assimilated her brains. I know some of this was to do with Roxann being pregnant around the time Seven was becoming popular and giving over lines for those reasons but you can't blame it completely for that. And just why was the excellent Janeway/B'Elanna mentorship relationship dropped anyway?
See, here's the thing. In the last episode they try to make it seem like the crew have suddenly decided that the journey is what's important not the destination, yet the show's whole point was getting home, and they had established communications with Starfleet, and then they actually get home. So I think there's a mixed theme at work here. I'm not saying they should have stayed stranded (I'm actually undecided) but the last episode seemed like a setup for leaving them stranded. Maybe they were trying to fake us out by having them be okay with 'the journey' or maybe it was just their way of celebrating the series. Either way it just came off - odd.
Agreed for the most part, particularly the idea of the two crews not integrating immediately, which IIRC was a studio mandate to make the show easier to tune-in to on the part of the casual viewer. Ridiculous. I mean, by the end of the pilot everyone was in a uniform like they had all gone to the Academy. Uh, ok.
And especially agreed to the replicators. The writers tried to have it both ways - they wanted replicators and holodecks, but tried to imply that the crew could use them less due to power rationing (at least in the first few seasons, until this was apparently forgotten entirely.) Yet even when this was supposed to be the case, it didn't really seem like they used them that much less than TNG, except for the appearance of Neelix's dishes, which still didn't feel much like rationing. Here was an opportunity to take away some comforts and make the crew more uncomfortable and create more drama that was lost.
There should have been more romances too but they also should have better handled the idea of this being a unique situation. Starfleet's never really seemed to have a problem with fraternization (except the Captain, but even then examples like Picard and Neela Darren come to mind) but here in this group of 150 people, taking into account the extended human lifespan, one could easily go through almost every suitable mate on the ship on the way home, and the crew could end up one gigantic intermarried family.
I think these are all good points that everyone can generally agree on, particularly with regard to B'Elanna. She was a genius in the first few seasons, and then it seemed Seven assimilated her brains. I know some of this was to do with Roxann being pregnant around the time Seven was becoming popular and giving over lines for those reasons but you can't blame it completely for that. And just why was the excellent Janeway/B'Elanna mentorship relationship dropped anyway?
See, here's the thing. In the last episode they try to make it seem like the crew have suddenly decided that the journey is what's important not the destination, yet the show's whole point was getting home, and they had established communications with Starfleet, and then they actually get home. So I think there's a mixed theme at work here. I'm not saying they should have stayed stranded (I'm actually undecided) but the last episode seemed like a setup for leaving them stranded. Maybe they were trying to fake us out by having them be okay with 'the journey' or maybe it was just their way of celebrating the series. Either way it just came off - odd.
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
I've been thinking about this a lot and I think I would have brought them home but in such away that they could get back into the Delta Quadrant. Or have them find or even invent the technology to get back. I haven't worked it all out in my mind, but what I mean is I would like to know what happened to Cullah and Seska's son.
Would Seska have any family left that might want to find the boy.
What do you think became of the free borg in "Unity", or the other free Borg from "Unimatrix Zero".
Like I said it's not all worked out.
Brit
I've been thinking about this a lot and I think I would have brought them home but in such away that they could get back into the Delta Quadrant. Or have them find or even invent the technology to get back. I haven't worked it all out in my mind, but what I mean is I would like to know what happened to Cullah and Seska's son.
Would Seska have any family left that might want to find the boy.
What do you think became of the free borg in "Unity", or the other free Borg from "Unimatrix Zero".
Like I said it's not all worked out.
Brit
Re: If you were the creator of VOY, what would you have done different
If you tuned into the shows & stay tuned in, then you gave Paramount approval to continue to treat you like a horny dog. If you turned it off like hundrends did with ENT., then you voice your opinion to Paramount that you don't approve of such things. If the majority responded badly to how Seven looked, they wouldn't have continued it with T'Pol.Your original post in full:
Nope, I'm still just seeing a random association between people who don't like the juvenile use of sexuality and the Klansmen.
We are going way off topic here, so I'm going to expand upon why I was offended by the catsuits, and the main reason why is because I was in the target demographic. I was 11 when Seven first showed up in her catsuit and I was 15 when it was repeated with T'Pol on Enterprise. It offends me because this is what they think I like. This is what they think I should like.
I liked good writing and good stories involving interesting characters, I did not like T'Pol stripping down to her undies and begging Phlox for sex. I liked being treated with respect and dignity, I did not like being treated like a horny dog.
Recently I have been watching old episodes of Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe, and in one episode he explored TV aimed at teenagers. To get their views on the subject he got a group of teenagers and showed them some shows designed for a teenage audience as well as a documentary called The Power of Nightmares. I recommend watching it here, the focus group bit begins at 4:33 and there is a really interesting point made by a young man 7:21 while pretty much encapsulates what I' trying to get at here.
(As a matter of record, I actually did watch The Power of Nightmares when I was 18 and thoroughly enjoyed it.)
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