If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Differently?
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Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
I like these -- particularly Martin Landau -- a whole bunch.
No! Get outta here! How did I miss that all these years? Well, very, very cool. Clearly I have to support the idea of another Mojave Desert kid in Starfleet. I've always liked Gary Lockwood anyway.
I like the idea of Raquel Welch a whole bunch, too. Did you ever see the 1970s versions of The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers (starring Oliver Reed, Richard Chamberlin, Michael York, Christopher Lee, Fay Dunnaway, and a whole lot of other talented folks)? Fabulous movies. Anyway, Welch stars in those as the comely and klutzy Constance, and she is wonderful. And she shows a real gift for comedy that is most definitely not on display in Fantastic Voyage or -- God help us all -- One Million Years B.C.
That is one cute little ship. I have to say -- very, very quietly and non-confrontationally and differentially so as not to offend and distress all the True Fans of the NCC-1701A, many of whom know far more about design than I do -- that I NEVER really liked the design of the Enterprise. Those two tube things (nacelles, I think they are called) look kind of cool from overhead, but from the side and, particularly, from 1/4 view, they look sort of like...well, tin cans. Sorry. Yes, I admit that I am a total
ignoramus, but they have always looked like tin cans to me, and that's all there is to it. So a sleeker and smaller ship would be nice.
And I'm glad we're all as one on the idea of pants and nothing but pants (on duty, that is).
I like these -- particularly Martin Landau -- a whole bunch.
No! Get outta here! How did I miss that all these years? Well, very, very cool. Clearly I have to support the idea of another Mojave Desert kid in Starfleet. I've always liked Gary Lockwood anyway.
I like the idea of Raquel Welch a whole bunch, too. Did you ever see the 1970s versions of The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers (starring Oliver Reed, Richard Chamberlin, Michael York, Christopher Lee, Fay Dunnaway, and a whole lot of other talented folks)? Fabulous movies. Anyway, Welch stars in those as the comely and klutzy Constance, and she is wonderful. And she shows a real gift for comedy that is most definitely not on display in Fantastic Voyage or -- God help us all -- One Million Years B.C.
That is one cute little ship. I have to say -- very, very quietly and non-confrontationally and differentially so as not to offend and distress all the True Fans of the NCC-1701A, many of whom know far more about design than I do -- that I NEVER really liked the design of the Enterprise. Those two tube things (nacelles, I think they are called) look kind of cool from overhead, but from the side and, particularly, from 1/4 view, they look sort of like...well, tin cans. Sorry. Yes, I admit that I am a total
ignoramus, but they have always looked like tin cans to me, and that's all there is to it. So a sleeker and smaller ship would be nice.
And I'm glad we're all as one on the idea of pants and nothing but pants (on duty, that is).
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Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
As promised here are some of my ideas. Basically, it's more alternative universe casting more than anything else and based on Roddenberry's original 13-page treatment for the series. Imagine that Robert Justman, like he did with Patrick Stewart for TNG, pimped Robert Culp as the starship captain, Robert M. April. Justman had worked on The Outer Limits and the Harlan Ellision episode Culp was in, "Demon With A Glass Hand."
NBC executives, as seen in memos from Inside Star Trek, wanted a more multiracial cast. In this universe, Roddenberry considered Percy Rodriguez to play Robert M. April, but feared that 1960s American wasn't ready for a black male lead. However, he still wanted a black male in a prominent role and thus cast him in the role of the doctor, Philip "Bones" Boyce.
Martin Landau excepted the role of Lieutenant Spock when it was offered to him, but insisted that his wife Barbara Bain also be part of the show. Roddeberry cast her instead of Barrett (or M. Leigh Hudac) in the role of the "mysterious" Number One. Barrett was instead the yeoman, J.M. Colt.
So that "alternative" cast of "The Cage" looked like this:
Captain Robert M. April, played by Robert Culp
Number One, played by Barbara Bain
Dr. Philip "Bones" Boyce, played by Percy Rodriguez
Lieutenant Spock, played by Martian Landau
Yeoman J.M. Colt, played by Majel Barrett/M. Leigh Hudac
Lieutenant Jose Tyler, played by the same as "our" universe.
This pilot was accepted as was the cast with the dictum that the series by more "action-orientated." The series underwent the same changes as it did in "ours" in order to sell more colored television sets by RCA. It also aired a year earlier than in "our universe." This timing made the show a hit like Mission: Impossible on CBS, except in this universe Leonard Nimoy ended up on that show much earlier than he did in ours, playing the role of Martin Land. William Shatner, not Peter Graves, replaced Steven Hill after M:I's first year.
Landau demanded a bigger role and his character of Spock was expanded to be on par with Number One. The role of "our" Spock was then split between Landau and Bain (yeah she can play cold and rational, see Dr. Helena Russell). Number One was the cold, unemotional rational person whereas Spock had a catlike curiosity in the stories and was more experimental with his human-half. As their characters did on Mission:Impossible and Space: 1999, Landau and Bain's characters had a romantic interest in one another.
Majel Barrett was satisfied with the role of the yeoman because she was the romantic interest of Culp's April. Nichelle Nichols still joined the cast as Uhura in '65 and George Takei did as well as Sulu in '65. However, Sulu's role is that of engineer than helmsman. There was no Scotty or Kirk. Chekov still got shoehorned in the third season ('67) to meet the needs of the teen viewership and the supposed Pravda article.
After the third year, Landau and Bain departed the show after money disputes. Leonard Nimoy was sought as Landau's replacement, hoping that audiences would accept a "recast" of Spock. Roddenberry decided to create a new character instead to avoid too much audience backlash over the replacement of the popular character. Nimoy played the full-Vulcan Xon who would replace both Number One and Spock.
The series lasted five seasons.
As promised here are some of my ideas. Basically, it's more alternative universe casting more than anything else and based on Roddenberry's original 13-page treatment for the series. Imagine that Robert Justman, like he did with Patrick Stewart for TNG, pimped Robert Culp as the starship captain, Robert M. April. Justman had worked on The Outer Limits and the Harlan Ellision episode Culp was in, "Demon With A Glass Hand."
NBC executives, as seen in memos from Inside Star Trek, wanted a more multiracial cast. In this universe, Roddenberry considered Percy Rodriguez to play Robert M. April, but feared that 1960s American wasn't ready for a black male lead. However, he still wanted a black male in a prominent role and thus cast him in the role of the doctor, Philip "Bones" Boyce.
Martin Landau excepted the role of Lieutenant Spock when it was offered to him, but insisted that his wife Barbara Bain also be part of the show. Roddeberry cast her instead of Barrett (or M. Leigh Hudac) in the role of the "mysterious" Number One. Barrett was instead the yeoman, J.M. Colt.
So that "alternative" cast of "The Cage" looked like this:
Captain Robert M. April, played by Robert Culp
Number One, played by Barbara Bain
Dr. Philip "Bones" Boyce, played by Percy Rodriguez
Lieutenant Spock, played by Martian Landau
Yeoman J.M. Colt, played by Majel Barrett/M. Leigh Hudac
Lieutenant Jose Tyler, played by the same as "our" universe.
This pilot was accepted as was the cast with the dictum that the series by more "action-orientated." The series underwent the same changes as it did in "ours" in order to sell more colored television sets by RCA. It also aired a year earlier than in "our universe." This timing made the show a hit like Mission: Impossible on CBS, except in this universe Leonard Nimoy ended up on that show much earlier than he did in ours, playing the role of Martin Land. William Shatner, not Peter Graves, replaced Steven Hill after M:I's first year.
Landau demanded a bigger role and his character of Spock was expanded to be on par with Number One. The role of "our" Spock was then split between Landau and Bain (yeah she can play cold and rational, see Dr. Helena Russell). Number One was the cold, unemotional rational person whereas Spock had a catlike curiosity in the stories and was more experimental with his human-half. As their characters did on Mission:Impossible and Space: 1999, Landau and Bain's characters had a romantic interest in one another.
Majel Barrett was satisfied with the role of the yeoman because she was the romantic interest of Culp's April. Nichelle Nichols still joined the cast as Uhura in '65 and George Takei did as well as Sulu in '65. However, Sulu's role is that of engineer than helmsman. There was no Scotty or Kirk. Chekov still got shoehorned in the third season ('67) to meet the needs of the teen viewership and the supposed Pravda article.
After the third year, Landau and Bain departed the show after money disputes. Leonard Nimoy was sought as Landau's replacement, hoping that audiences would accept a "recast" of Spock. Roddenberry decided to create a new character instead to avoid too much audience backlash over the replacement of the popular character. Nimoy played the full-Vulcan Xon who would replace both Number One and Spock.
The series lasted five seasons.
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Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
^Thanks, and congrats, Commodore.
^Thanks, and congrats, Commodore.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
Thanks.
It seems like your show would have been a more tightly-written ensemble piece than the trio-driven TOS. I like that idea.
I also like the use of Percy Rodriguez, Martin Landau and Barbara Bain quite a bit. I like how you've split Spock's character between Number One and Landau Spock. And I like the introduction of Xon as the new XO. I'm guessing you mean Spock and Xon to be the science officer too?
What would you production design have looked like? Would you have kept the ship the same?
Thanks.
It seems like your show would have been a more tightly-written ensemble piece than the trio-driven TOS. I like that idea.
I also like the use of Percy Rodriguez, Martin Landau and Barbara Bain quite a bit. I like how you've split Spock's character between Number One and Landau Spock. And I like the introduction of Xon as the new XO. I'm guessing you mean Spock and Xon to be the science officer too?
What would you production design have looked like? Would you have kept the ship the same?
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
I would have added a saboteur and a robot . . .
I would have added a saboteur and a robot . . .
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
Much like Mission: Impossible, in that each character had a particular part to play in the adventure.
I was always impressed with Commodore Stone and thought that Percy Rodriguez might've been a good lead actor in TOS. Considering the era, I thought that making him captain might've been a bit too much for the suits but in a supporting lead capacity like Greg Morris, it might work. Since Rodriguez played a doctor on Peyton Place, I thought it be cool if he were the ship's surgeon.
Costumes wouldn't be much different.
That's about it.
Much like Mission: Impossible, in that each character had a particular part to play in the adventure.
Yeah, Spock would've been the SO with Number One the XO. Xon, however, would've been both.
I was always impressed with Commodore Stone and thought that Percy Rodriguez might've been a good lead actor in TOS. Considering the era, I thought that making him captain might've been a bit too much for the suits but in a supporting lead capacity like Greg Morris, it might work. Since Rodriguez played a doctor on Peyton Place, I thought it be cool if he were the ship's surgeon.
I'd probably would've gone with the ringship design Jefferies toyed with for TOS and Starship, and seen in the TMP Rec Room. I always liked that design. That ship design might've changed the bridge from being on a circular platform to being on a rectangular platform ala a submarine control room. Perhaps Butler convienced Roddenberry to go with the weathered look of the interiors to show the age of the ship more (which he tried to do when putting together "The Cage," per Altamn's Captain's Logs). But there'd still be the same console designs, lighting, et ceterra of TOS.
Costumes wouldn't be much different.
That's about it.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
well, not to sound unimaginative, but if I were "Gene Roddenberry," I would have kept the cast and concept intact. However, I would have kept the stories more in the serious vein of the early first season, instead of going too much into the lighthearted space opera. And I would have stuck it out for the third season and delivered a smashing year, no matter how bad the time slot. It may have actually made a difference.
But other than that, I didn't find anything that needed changing.
well, not to sound unimaginative, but if I were "Gene Roddenberry," I would have kept the cast and concept intact. However, I would have kept the stories more in the serious vein of the early first season, instead of going too much into the lighthearted space opera. And I would have stuck it out for the third season and delivered a smashing year, no matter how bad the time slot. It may have actually made a difference.
But other than that, I didn't find anything that needed changing.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
Wow, is it me, or is the bottom shape in this pic a possible inspiration for the Defiant?
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
I think others have said that too. I don't know whether Jim Martin had seen this drawing when he was doodling the Defiant, but the resemblance is uncanny. I think here the parts that on the D are nacelles are just hollow shells analogous to the warp rings on the 'ringship.'
I think others have said that too. I don't know whether Jim Martin had seen this drawing when he was doodling the Defiant, but the resemblance is uncanny. I think here the parts that on the D are nacelles are just hollow shells analogous to the warp rings on the 'ringship.'
L
Lord Garth
Guest
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
What would I have changed? The skies on Earth should never have been so clear.
What would I have changed? The skies on Earth should never have been so clear.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
What would I have changed?
I'd never have made the Yeoman pining for the Captain, nor the nurse in love with Spock. That was bad for the image of women on the show.
Spock wouldn't have called Kirk "Jim" until the chips were down in "City on the Edge of Forever".
I'd never have pitched the show to NBC as a "strange new worlds" format, but stressed the shipboard aspect, and that we'd visit planets never more than 40% of the episodes, which would allow more of the budget to be spent on:
I'd have instructed the production team to not be on-the-nose when visiting planets like in Return of the Archons. Sure, the technology may be circa 1900, but let's mix up the stock wardrobe to it's not EARTH clothes of that era, and do small stuff to make the place seem alien, like show a clock with 7 "hours" or other things just "off" from what we're used to.
I'd have made sure that serious episodes end on a serious note, not a jaw-droppingly inappropriate "humorous" finish.
I'd have made McCoy a true equal to Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and importance to stories.
I'd have taught the production crew that the trick to making a soundstage planet set not look 50 feet deep is to make sure that the false horizon is at the correct height (eye level).
I'd have rotated the secondary characters to different posts, so they're not always at the same stations and doing the same thing week after week.
Etc.
What would I have changed?
I'd never have made the Yeoman pining for the Captain, nor the nurse in love with Spock. That was bad for the image of women on the show.
Spock wouldn't have called Kirk "Jim" until the chips were down in "City on the Edge of Forever".
I'd never have pitched the show to NBC as a "strange new worlds" format, but stressed the shipboard aspect, and that we'd visit planets never more than 40% of the episodes, which would allow more of the budget to be spent on:
- standing sets
- developing the cast
- building a library of stock shots of the ship
I'd have instructed the production team to not be on-the-nose when visiting planets like in Return of the Archons. Sure, the technology may be circa 1900, but let's mix up the stock wardrobe to it's not EARTH clothes of that era, and do small stuff to make the place seem alien, like show a clock with 7 "hours" or other things just "off" from what we're used to.
I'd have made sure that serious episodes end on a serious note, not a jaw-droppingly inappropriate "humorous" finish.
I'd have made McCoy a true equal to Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and importance to stories.
I'd have taught the production crew that the trick to making a soundstage planet set not look 50 feet deep is to make sure that the false horizon is at the correct height (eye level).
I'd have rotated the secondary characters to different posts, so they're not always at the same stations and doing the same thing week after week.
Etc.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
Are you talking about planet Rand McNally that the ship seems to orbit in MIRI and TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, or the almost equally bald skies over nuclear winter earth in FIRST CONTACT?
To counter an earlier poster, I'd've done everything possible to keep Gene Coon aboard and keep the character development and humor at the fore, since Coon's tenure is what makes TREK work consistently rather than in fits and spurts. First part of yr1 has some winners, but it is a mess in a lot of ways.
Are you talking about planet Rand McNally that the ship seems to orbit in MIRI and TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY, or the almost equally bald skies over nuclear winter earth in FIRST CONTACT?
To counter an earlier poster, I'd've done everything possible to keep Gene Coon aboard and keep the character development and humor at the fore, since Coon's tenure is what makes TREK work consistently rather than in fits and spurts. First part of yr1 has some winners, but it is a mess in a lot of ways.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
I agree with about all of your points, especially this. The forced "let's stand around the captain's chair and laugh till the credits roll" endings are cringeworthy.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
Just to nitpick:
<i>I'd never have made the Yeoman pining for the Captain, nor the nurse in love with Spock. That was bad for the image of women on the show.</i>
this is 2009 thinking - in 1966, it was deemed necessary for SOME kind of romantic interest...besides, both were only done a couple of times...
<i>Spock wouldn't have called Kirk "Jim" until the chips were down in "City on the Edge of Forever".</i>
It took the characters a while to settle in, what can one say?
<i>I'd never have pitched the show to NBC as a "strange new worlds" format, but stressed the shipboard aspect, and that we'd visit planets never more than 40% of the episodes, which would allow more of the budget to be spent on:
NBC (or Desilu, for that matter)would never have bought that concept. Remember that from the get-go, Trek was 'Wagon Train to the Stars". Again, we sit here TODAY, and go, 'hey, a network/cable channel might buy that", but in 1964, science fiction meant visiting other planets.
<i>I'd have instructed the production team to not be on-the-nose when visiting planets like in Return of the Archons. Sure, the technology may be circa 1900, but let's mix up the stock wardrobe to it's not EARTH clothes of that era, and do small stuff to make the place seem alien, like show a clock with 7 "hours" or other things just "off" from what we're used to.</i>
The problem here, as with most of Trek's 'flaws', are the old bugaboos,
TIME and MONEY. The Trek production crew was constantly fighting both just to get the darn thing on the air - so if they took 'shortcuts' like that, one cannot blame them too much. Also remember that Roddenberry was very fond of what he called the 'believability factor' - in 1966, he had to attract not just the geeks, but also a GENERAL audience. I think he used Joe the cab driver and Aunt Minnie - they had to understand it too! It was bad enough trying to make them believe in things like the transporter, warp drive and friendly aliens with pointed ears. This is why he encouraged -and its in the Writer's Guide - for his scripts NOT to use overly technical terms if possible.....unlike the endless technobabble we have gotten since then. This has been one of the main reasons TOS has eerged as a CLASSIC - as opposed to just another good show...IMHO.
<i>I'd have made sure that serious episodes end on a serious note, not a jaw-droppingly inappropriate "humorous" finish.</i>
Agreed - to a point. This is also something that is very 1960's - Wild Wild West....UNCLE....and a few others all do it. Gene Coon had a lot to with WWW's sense of humor, so there IS a connection, and it would be something that is missed - look at the third season, where Frieberger killed almost ALL the humor!
<i>I'd have made McCoy a true equal to Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and importance to stories.</i>
True, but by the time it was realized Dee Kelley was so good, egos were already in place...
<i>I'd have taught the production crew that the trick to making a soundstage planet set not look 50 feet deep is to make sure that the false horizon is at the correct height (eye level).</i>
again TIME and MONEY......plus the facilities you were dealing with....
<i>I'd have rotated the secondary characters to different posts, so they're not always at the same stations and doing the same thing week after week.</i>
the only one I have a problem with is Chekov - it would have been fun to see him getting his hands dirty in Engineering with Scotty.or working the Transporter....or when Takei is off working with John Wayne, put him at the damn helm position!
Just to nitpick:
<i>I'd never have made the Yeoman pining for the Captain, nor the nurse in love with Spock. That was bad for the image of women on the show.</i>
this is 2009 thinking - in 1966, it was deemed necessary for SOME kind of romantic interest...besides, both were only done a couple of times...
<i>Spock wouldn't have called Kirk "Jim" until the chips were down in "City on the Edge of Forever".</i>
It took the characters a while to settle in, what can one say?
<i>I'd never have pitched the show to NBC as a "strange new worlds" format, but stressed the shipboard aspect, and that we'd visit planets never more than 40% of the episodes, which would allow more of the budget to be spent on:
- standing sets
- developing the cast
- building a library of stock shots of the ship
NBC (or Desilu, for that matter)would never have bought that concept. Remember that from the get-go, Trek was 'Wagon Train to the Stars". Again, we sit here TODAY, and go, 'hey, a network/cable channel might buy that", but in 1964, science fiction meant visiting other planets.
<i>I'd have instructed the production team to not be on-the-nose when visiting planets like in Return of the Archons. Sure, the technology may be circa 1900, but let's mix up the stock wardrobe to it's not EARTH clothes of that era, and do small stuff to make the place seem alien, like show a clock with 7 "hours" or other things just "off" from what we're used to.</i>
The problem here, as with most of Trek's 'flaws', are the old bugaboos,
TIME and MONEY. The Trek production crew was constantly fighting both just to get the darn thing on the air - so if they took 'shortcuts' like that, one cannot blame them too much. Also remember that Roddenberry was very fond of what he called the 'believability factor' - in 1966, he had to attract not just the geeks, but also a GENERAL audience. I think he used Joe the cab driver and Aunt Minnie - they had to understand it too! It was bad enough trying to make them believe in things like the transporter, warp drive and friendly aliens with pointed ears. This is why he encouraged -and its in the Writer's Guide - for his scripts NOT to use overly technical terms if possible.....unlike the endless technobabble we have gotten since then. This has been one of the main reasons TOS has eerged as a CLASSIC - as opposed to just another good show...IMHO.
<i>I'd have made sure that serious episodes end on a serious note, not a jaw-droppingly inappropriate "humorous" finish.</i>
Agreed - to a point. This is also something that is very 1960's - Wild Wild West....UNCLE....and a few others all do it. Gene Coon had a lot to with WWW's sense of humor, so there IS a connection, and it would be something that is missed - look at the third season, where Frieberger killed almost ALL the humor!
<i>I'd have made McCoy a true equal to Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and importance to stories.</i>
True, but by the time it was realized Dee Kelley was so good, egos were already in place...
<i>I'd have taught the production crew that the trick to making a soundstage planet set not look 50 feet deep is to make sure that the false horizon is at the correct height (eye level).</i>
again TIME and MONEY......plus the facilities you were dealing with....
<i>I'd have rotated the secondary characters to different posts, so they're not always at the same stations and doing the same thing week after week.</i>
the only one I have a problem with is Chekov - it would have been fun to see him getting his hands dirty in Engineering with Scotty.or working the Transporter....or when Takei is off working with John Wayne, put him at the damn helm position!
L
Lord Garth
Guest
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
"Miri", "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" and "Assignment: Earth". Earth or "Earth" in general.
I wasn't even thinking about First Contact but now that you mention it, it was a really nice day for New Guinea.
"Miri", "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" and "Assignment: Earth". Earth or "Earth" in general.
I wasn't even thinking about First Contact but now that you mention it, it was a really nice day for New Guinea.
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
And after reading a few of your nitpicks I skipped the rest. I put forward ideas what were more practical and less pie-in-the-sky than many others here. I'm quite aware of the realities of film and TV production, thanks very much, and nothing I suggested would have been more expensive than what was done. It's where you choose to spend your money and how you direct your production people on how to do things.
I don't believe you have any real idea what NBC or sixties audiences would or wouldn't have gone for, so I'm not going to argue that with you.
Why out of all the posts here you chose to nitpick mine is a mystery to me. Playing Devil's advocate is lazy...
And after reading a few of your nitpicks I skipped the rest. I put forward ideas what were more practical and less pie-in-the-sky than many others here. I'm quite aware of the realities of film and TV production, thanks very much, and nothing I suggested would have been more expensive than what was done. It's where you choose to spend your money and how you direct your production people on how to do things.
I don't believe you have any real idea what NBC or sixties audiences would or wouldn't have gone for, so I'm not going to argue that with you.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Re: If You Were the Creator of TOS, What Would You Have Done Different
2060 - This decade's weather report: Hot and VERY clear, 90% chance of surprisingly invisible fallout ...
2060 - This decade's weather report: Hot and VERY clear, 90% chance of surprisingly invisible fallout ...
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