What would you have done differently in terms of the show's storylines and the characters?
If you were in charge of DS9...
- Thread starter Joe Washington
- Start date
One thing that comes to mind is Captain Sisko at the end becoming a wormhole alien. I would have liked to have seen him remain first and foremost loyal to Starfleet and remain in their service.
I also would have liked better integration between the various trek shows of the time. There should have been more interaction between TNG and DS9 at first and DS9 and Voyager at the end. Imagine if Voyager was instead thrown to a location where going through the gamma quadrant wormhole was significantly faster (say 7 years vs. 70 years) and by the end of the show Voyager would be approaching Dominion space in the Gamma quadrant, in perfect time to pick up some of those story-lines right as DS9 ended.
I also would have liked better integration between the various trek shows of the time. There should have been more interaction between TNG and DS9 at first and DS9 and Voyager at the end. Imagine if Voyager was instead thrown to a location where going through the gamma quadrant wormhole was significantly faster (say 7 years vs. 70 years) and by the end of the show Voyager would be approaching Dominion space in the Gamma quadrant, in perfect time to pick up some of those story-lines right as DS9 ended.
- have Picard in an episode, and explore if Sisko still detested/resented him.
- Expand on "the adversary" and show a brief war between the Federation and Tzenkethi. once the Changling is discovered, the war ends. Have the Way of the Warrior in season 5, and from this build on the short war between the Klingons and the Federation.
- Expand on "the adversary" and show a brief war between the Federation and Tzenkethi. once the Changling is discovered, the war ends. Have the Way of the Warrior in season 5, and from this build on the short war between the Klingons and the Federation.
Well, I think it won't be a big surprise to anyone that I'm going to say I either wouldn't introduce the Pah-wraiths, or I'd write them as just another faction of aliens who have a beef with the Prophets, rather than absolute evil, and I'd give them a reasonable motivation, rather than "end all life in galaxy" (WTF?). I wouldn't have Dukat become a Pah-wraith worshipper. I wouldn't introduce the stupid and totally unnecessary retcon of Sisko's birth being arranged by the Prophets (in a very creepy way).
Also, I'd follow up on "Hard Time". O'Brien would be dealing with the psychological consequences of his experience at least for another season.
I would show Odo having to work to make people on DS9, and especially Kira, forgive and trust him again after his betrayal during the Dominion occupation, rather than 'oh he came around in the end, so it's all good' and then an off-screen conversation with Kira.
I most certainly would either eliminate the Mirror Universe episodes, or would rewrite them in very different manner. No silliness, no overacting, no evil bisexuals and evil lesbians. The Intendant would be violent, ruthless and terrifying, but she would be convinced that she is right about what she is doing; she wouldn't be a sex-obsessed hedonistic bisexual narcissist. In other words, she would be someone more believable as an evil version of Kira, rather than a completely different person played by Nana Visitor.
Oh, and I certainly would cut down the number of Ferengi episodes. I'll only allow the few that were either really funny, or presented the Ferengi race as something more than silly stereotypes. Which would leave, what, 4 or 5 episodes in the entire show?
Also, I'd follow up on "Hard Time". O'Brien would be dealing with the psychological consequences of his experience at least for another season.
I would show Odo having to work to make people on DS9, and especially Kira, forgive and trust him again after his betrayal during the Dominion occupation, rather than 'oh he came around in the end, so it's all good' and then an off-screen conversation with Kira.
I most certainly would either eliminate the Mirror Universe episodes, or would rewrite them in very different manner. No silliness, no overacting, no evil bisexuals and evil lesbians. The Intendant would be violent, ruthless and terrifying, but she would be convinced that she is right about what she is doing; she wouldn't be a sex-obsessed hedonistic bisexual narcissist. In other words, she would be someone more believable as an evil version of Kira, rather than a completely different person played by Nana Visitor.
Oh, and I certainly would cut down the number of Ferengi episodes. I'll only allow the few that were either really funny, or presented the Ferengi race as something more than silly stereotypes. Which would leave, what, 4 or 5 episodes in the entire show?
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I would have not had Odo continuing to profess throughout the series that he did not believe the prophets existed. It just bugged the crap out of me that it was happening right in front of him, but he still acted like it was just some wacky religion. I mean Odo, your girlfriend was possessed by a prophet and fought an epic battle right on your promenade! Not to mention that Sisko saw them and talked to them several times. Did he just think Sisko was making it all up?
For prophets-sakes, get a grip!
Seems that there was another of the characters that was the same way (O'Brien maybe?).
I know this is a very small thing, but it just always bugged me. There are not to many big things I would change, other than the few really bad episodes, like Valiant. I would have berated some writers and sent them back to the drawing board.
For prophets-sakes, get a grip!
Seems that there was another of the characters that was the same way (O'Brien maybe?).
I know this is a very small thing, but it just always bugged me. There are not to many big things I would change, other than the few really bad episodes, like Valiant. I would have berated some writers and sent them back to the drawing board.
DevilEyes said:
I can get on board with all these.
Well, I liked most of them, but getting rid of some of the more marginal ones wouldn't hurt--under your guidelines, reducing them to Little Green Men and The Magnificent Ferengi wouldn't have killed the show.
Rehabilitating the Ferengi as some kind of respectably threatening interstellar power actually would've been pretty high on my priority list. A ruthlessly capitalist alternative to the Feds' goody-two-shoes socialism and the fascism of, well, everybody else would have been a good addition to the show. Less goofiness in the Ferengi characters in general; Rom being an idiot savant was fine, but having virtually every Ferengi character being a cowardly, shallow, effeminate dork was unfortunate.
I agree on all of these, especially the second and fourth one.
As for the first one, I never like absolutely evil characters. I want both heroes and villains to be sympathetic. In my opinion, however, Dukat could become a Pah-wraith worshipper if the Pah-wraiths had reasonable motivation. I'd also change the Prophets so that the Bajoran faith wasn't so strongly based on fact. What if they didn't care about the Bajorans at all or Sisko wasn't really the Emissary?
As for the MU, aside from removing the evil bisexuals and lesbians, some of the MU episodes could take place entirely in the MU.
I'd also have Garak and Bashir's relationship to be romantic, not just look like it is. Those two had better chemistry than many of the canonical Trek couples (Seven and Chakotay is the worst example of this).
I would have the episode they find Dukat crazy after the death of his daughter, the last time we see him in the series.
This would be an appropriate and very dramatic end for a man that was indecisive (I hope I used the correct term, sorry, English is not my native language) between good and evil.
His return later was, for me, a disaster, since they took a really deep character and turned him into a two-dimensional, evil caricature...
This would be an appropriate and very dramatic end for a man that was indecisive (I hope I used the correct term, sorry, English is not my native language) between good and evil.
His return later was, for me, a disaster, since they took a really deep character and turned him into a two-dimensional, evil caricature...
I think that Dukat siding with the Pah-wraiths would be more believable if, instead of becoming an actual believer, he just believed he could use them for his own ends, like he thought he could use the alliance with the Dominion. (Of course, he would be just as wrong as he was about the Dominion.)
1: I would have the characters catagorically give a reason why the wormhole isn't mined/collapsed upon first contact with the Dominion. They look like idiots for not doing this.
2: I would not have Dukat go all EVIL after "Waltz". It ruined his character I think.
3: No Sisko's birth aranged by the Prophets. It is creepy.
Thats it I think.
2: I would not have Dukat go all EVIL after "Waltz". It ruined his character I think.
3: No Sisko's birth aranged by the Prophets. It is creepy.
Thats it I think.
Odo was actually not succumbing to the premise of describing the wormhole aliens as the 'prophets' or attribute 'divine' attributes to them because he knew (like many other SF officers in the show, and people on this very board) that they are simply alien life-forms who exist in a different manner compared to corporeal entities in Trek universe, and have highly advanced technology at their disposal.
He was perceiving things in a rational capacity ... something that cannot be said for a lot of characters that quickly succumbed to the Bajoran religion simply because the aliens in question turned out to be the 'Prophets' who instigated the entire religion around them in the first place.
Sisko was also an idiot for starting to think of the wormhole aliens as religious figures and potential 'gods'.
It kinda degraded his credibility as a SF officer really.
1. No mirror-universe nonsense
2. Less emphasis on the wormhole aliens. In particular, they should have had nothing to do with keeping the Dominion fleet out of the AQ. No Pah Wraiths and magic books.
3. No destroying the character of Gul Dukat.
4. While I like the Ferengi as they are, they should have been portrayed more as a major AQ power. Zek should have been a serious character.
2. Less emphasis on the wormhole aliens. In particular, they should have had nothing to do with keeping the Dominion fleet out of the AQ. No Pah Wraiths and magic books.
3. No destroying the character of Gul Dukat.
4. While I like the Ferengi as they are, they should have been portrayed more as a major AQ power. Zek should have been a serious character.
How so? Unless the Starfleet is a totalitarian organization that doesn't allow its officers the freedom of thought, including religious freedom, I don't see how Sisko's religious leanings should affect his credibility as a Starfleet officer.
I would also say that it's very smug and bigoted to call people idiots because of their beliefs, certainly in the case when their beliefs are based on facts - i.e. the Prophets exist and are not linear. This is a fact. Whether one chooses to worship them or not, whether one likes them or not, is a matter of choice/opinion. You may as well call Bashir idiot because he believes he should stick to the Hippocratic Oath, or any Starfleet officer an idiot for believing in Federation ideals.
Personally, I think that Prophets as presented in DS9 are assholes, but I wouldn't deny others the right to judge them differently.
I would name it Terok Nor instead 
and you would see a lot more Cardassians and details for the characters, the culture, every day life.... *L* sounds a bit like cardassian soap opera. Guess its good I was not in charge of DS9.
What else... I would not kill off Damar and I would not have Dukat be obsessed with that Wraiths. Odo would not have gone to the Link...and O´Brien to earth...and Sisko to the Prophets...I just hate Good Byes. All I want is a big, happy family....God, now I sound like Weyoun.
TerokNor
and you would see a lot more Cardassians and details for the characters, the culture, every day life.... *L* sounds a bit like cardassian soap opera. Guess its good I was not in charge of DS9.What else... I would not kill off Damar and I would not have Dukat be obsessed with that Wraiths. Odo would not have gone to the Link...and O´Brien to earth...and Sisko to the Prophets...I just hate Good Byes. All I want is a big, happy family....God, now I sound like Weyoun.
TerokNor
Often times I just need another perspective to knock me out of my tunnel vision. I don't know anyone personally to talk about Trek with, so it's nice to hear how other people see things (which is usually how it really is). Thanks.
Although, I will say that I don't necessarily agree that Sisko was an idiot for seeing them as religious figures and potential gods. They certainly were religious figures to the Bajorans, and had the power of gods. Can you honestly say that if you were having the experiences that Sisko was having (SF officer or not), that you would not have a tendency to see them as gods? I most likely would.
While you know I don't agree with you on the Prophets vs. Pah-Wraiths stuff, or Dukat's madness, I do think the execution could've been improved, especially in "What You Left Behind." But to me, it seems like poetic justice for the choices he made and for what he did to his own soul.
Yeah, definitely. Or if a way was found (despite the aliens' insistence it couldn't be) to suppress the memories, we should've heard about it.
YES.
Kira is normally NOT forgiving...I mean, look how she treated a kind old man in his last days, because of something he did (and was VERY sorry for) when he was 18 years old...still practically a boy!
Personally, I even think there's an argument to be made that "Sacrifice of Angels" should have ended with a dead Odo instead of a dead Ziyal. (Which of course would've made for a VERY dark couple of next seasons, possibly even nuBSG dark in the final chapter. But it would've made sense.)
God, yes. The Mirror Universe was the worst thing to happen to DS9.
I mean, for starters, I don't get where a person's sexual orientation would change according to what universe they're in--I mean, that's biology as far as I'm aware, not a matter of choice. Hedonism I could see being a choice...a version of Kira with exclusively male slaves, I could've seen that. But the bisexuality stuff? Only would've made sense if we'd seen evidence of bisexuality in the canon universe.
Which is why I WOULD buy it if we'd seen Garak swing both ways...I think the evidence is there that he was sexually ambiguous. And MAYBE Dax, though it would only make sense with a symbiont she had relations with before, given that symbionts are asexual and DO have feelings for each other regardless of their hosts' genders...I don't think the symbionts even have a concept of sexual orientation. But the feelings of the host get in there too, though, and I think that Jadzia, and Ezri Tigan were heterosexual.
But Kira? Other characters? Sorry...I don't think the evidence is there to make that believable.
BTW...what's interesting is that the person you're describing that YOU would want to see Intendant Kira be like is pretty much a mirror of Prefect Dukat.
There were a few bad ones...but I did enjoy the humor in some of them, for sure.
I think that's probably how it actually started with Dukat...he thought he could control it, use it for his own ends, but as soon as that first Pah-wraith got into his shattered mind, it converted him.
If I was in charge...
-Had some TNG guest stars for the Worf-Dax wedding.
-A Ro Laren episode.
-A Borg episode, perhaps first season.
-Followed up the Tom Riker episode.
-Made Kira actually a very deep cover Illiana Ghemor. Then again, maybe not.
-Worked Eddington into more shows earlier on so his betrayal would have a bigger payoff. It seemed to me that he was flirting with Kira a little bit when he first appeared so I would've followed that up.
-Found a way to keep T'Rul on the show. Or at least had her cameo.
-Killed Dax off in "Change of Heart." Would've had Worf choosing the mission over her.
-Introduced the next Dax host as a male in season 7, but not made him a regular.
-Focus more on Jake in the 7th season. I thought it would've been neat to make him a war correspondent, obviously against his father's wishes, and it would've shown growth since his turn in "Nor the Battle the Strong."
-Made the Hunter (Arai) species a part of the Dominion.
-Made the Son'a a part of the Dominion. They had some cool ships and weapons and I would've liked seeing them again.
-Made the Tholians or Gorn a part of the Dominion, perhaps instead of the Breen, or in addition to the Breen. I thought the Breen were okay, but just the nice TOS nod would've been sweeter.
-Tied the Pah Wraiths and Dominion closer together. Dukat would've gotten support for his insane plan at the end by claiming that the Pah Wraiths could open up the wormhole for the Dominion to send their ships through, or that they could produce the fleet the Prophets had made disappear. That could've set up two climatic battles, one on Bajor and the other at DS9.
-Left Dukat a blind Bajoran beggar at the end of the show, and made Kai Winn the anti-Emissary. I thought it would've been more fitting, him becoming the thing he hated so much.
-Investing Sisko with the power of the Prophets to counter Winn having the Pah Wraiths' power. It could lead to a more spectacular, evenly matched battle.
-Better S31 episodes. The best was "Inter Arma Silent Leges", but the rest of them were subpar though I liked Sloan.
-Less Mirror Universe episodes, especially the 7th season one.
-Had some TNG guest stars for the Worf-Dax wedding.
-A Ro Laren episode.
-A Borg episode, perhaps first season.
-Followed up the Tom Riker episode.
-Made Kira actually a very deep cover Illiana Ghemor. Then again, maybe not.
-Worked Eddington into more shows earlier on so his betrayal would have a bigger payoff. It seemed to me that he was flirting with Kira a little bit when he first appeared so I would've followed that up.
-Found a way to keep T'Rul on the show. Or at least had her cameo.
-Killed Dax off in "Change of Heart." Would've had Worf choosing the mission over her.
-Introduced the next Dax host as a male in season 7, but not made him a regular.
-Focus more on Jake in the 7th season. I thought it would've been neat to make him a war correspondent, obviously against his father's wishes, and it would've shown growth since his turn in "Nor the Battle the Strong."
-Made the Hunter (Arai) species a part of the Dominion.
-Made the Son'a a part of the Dominion. They had some cool ships and weapons and I would've liked seeing them again.
-Made the Tholians or Gorn a part of the Dominion, perhaps instead of the Breen, or in addition to the Breen. I thought the Breen were okay, but just the nice TOS nod would've been sweeter.
-Tied the Pah Wraiths and Dominion closer together. Dukat would've gotten support for his insane plan at the end by claiming that the Pah Wraiths could open up the wormhole for the Dominion to send their ships through, or that they could produce the fleet the Prophets had made disappear. That could've set up two climatic battles, one on Bajor and the other at DS9.
-Left Dukat a blind Bajoran beggar at the end of the show, and made Kai Winn the anti-Emissary. I thought it would've been more fitting, him becoming the thing he hated so much.
-Investing Sisko with the power of the Prophets to counter Winn having the Pah Wraiths' power. It could lead to a more spectacular, evenly matched battle.
-Better S31 episodes. The best was "Inter Arma Silent Leges", but the rest of them were subpar though I liked Sloan.
-Less Mirror Universe episodes, especially the 7th season one.
I was happy that he did not. For once we didn't get the "Starfleet officer chooses job/mission over personal life" stereotype. It seemed more real and... human thing to do (I am aware of the irony of this statement).
That's interesting. I was describing a malevolent, exaggerated version of some of Kira's less pleasant traits. If the 'dark side' of Kira is a bit like Dukat, that would certainly explain some aspects of their relationship.
I agree that the differences in the sexual orientation are the most problematic and least believable. They really don't make sense (and it has very unfortunate implications of associating homosexuality and bisexuality with decadence and depravity). But even with character traits, it works much better to have "alternate universe" versions of characters who still have at least some of the same basic traits as their prime universe counterparts. This is the basic concept of the Mirror Universe - they are basically same people who have had a completely different background, upbringing and experiences. Their bad and scary traits should be recognizable as an extension, exaggeration or malevolent version of some of the traits we've seen in their prime universe - the 'dark side'. If you can't recognize the character at all except by looks, then it doesn't feel like a "mirror" counterpart, but a completely different character played by the same actor. Look at Mirror Spock: he tortures people, threatens, has his Vulcan bodyguards, yet he still is frank and has a certain code of honor of his own. You can really believe that this is what Spock might have turned out in that kind of universe. With the Intendant, I don't get that impression. I don't see anything to suggest that Kira has a tendency to be a self-centered hedonist who's mainly out for her own pleasure. What I do see is that she can have quite a temper, she isn't very forgiving, tends to see things in black and white terms, can commit violent and ruthless actions when she thinks she is doing what is right. The person I described is the kind of evil Kira I could imagine. Maybe she could have turned out like that if Bajorans were one of the oppressors and she was taught to despise humans.
The character of the Intendant would actually make more sense as Mirror Dax . But not Mirror unjoined-Jadzia or Ezri Tigan. Curzon Dax was flamboyant, over-sexed, and loved to enjoy life to the full, and these qualities have seeped into Jadzia Dax in a less extreme, milder form. I could perhaps buy a Mirror Jadzia Dax who would be a malevolent, exaggerated version of Dax who is a total opportunist and hedonist who keeps sex slaves. She may perhaps even be convincingly bisexual, since Dax does not have a gender and has been both male and female.
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