If you die, does your Nexus "echo" die too?

In Star Trek Generations, both Kirk and Guinan end up in the Nexus. In the case of the fomer, he is physically transported there after an energy tentril tears a hole in the compartment of the Enterprise-B stardrive where he was working in deflector control (not sure how that didn't destroy half the ship, as in First Contact it is mentioned the deflector is "charged with antiprotons", but that is for a later discussion). In the case of Guinan, she had just been in the Nexus prior to her rescue, leaving behind an "echo" of herself.

This is where things get confusing, at least if Generations and First Contact are the most recent films you've seen chronologically. Guinan could easily be assumed to have been killed when the Enterprise-D saucer crashes on Veridian III, because she never appears again in the remainder of the film except as an echo, and is totally absent from the next two films. Assume you have only seen up to First Contact: would it be reasonable to think that if someone dies, their "echo" is still alive in the Nexus? We never see Kirk's echo, because in his case, he exists in his entirety inside the Nexus for 78 years, until Picard is also phyiscally picked up. Now, in Kirk's case, when he leaves the Nexus, did he leave an "echo" of himself? Did Picard? And could either "echo", in theory, be a source of immortality, by which both men live forever in the Nexus? Or as Picard tells Riker at the end of the movie, are they truly "only mortal"?

Thoughts?

 

I prefer to think that the ‘echo’ was just nonsense made up by the Nexus to keep Picard there. You heard me. Picard is still in the Nexus.

 

When they die, they become part of the energy ribbon.

 

My entire theory of the Nexus is that it is something of a telepathic entity, & much like when a Vulcan mind meld leaves an imprint or piece of the person's mind in the other, this is probably what is represented by the Nexus echo

So in that sense, yes, the echo probably lives on, just like Sarek lives on in the mind of Picard, having been shared with him, or just like Spock could be salvaged from McCoy's mind after death.

The Nexus being a telepathic entity theory also goes a long way to making sense of why Kirk & Picard's fantasies are neither of them captaining their respective ships, which we know to be their first best destinies. Instead, their fantasies reflect more superficial & more recent things on their minds as they entered the Nexus, (Picard losing family & Kirk longing to confess to his lady about returning to Starfleet)

It always seemed to me like a mind at work in the Nexus, trying to figure out what would make its inhabitants exhibit feelings of contentment, potentially feeding on that contentment, and not necessarily to the ultimate fulfilment of those in it. I honestly never thought of Nexus Guinan as the real Guinan. It's a piece of Guinan, left there, and being used by the Nexus, just like the piece of Sarek left in Picard can be accessed by Picard to better know Spock, a man he'd never known otherwise.

 

No. The Nexus is like the Bajoran Wormhole: It's outside of time, and past, present, and future are all simultaneous. The Nexus "echoes" are merely a consequence of that non-temporal existence -- if you're in the Nexus at any time, even if it's just for a few moments from the perspective of outside reality, then you're in it at every time. So even if someone else enters the Nexus hundreds or thousands of years later, they will be there in the same perpetual "now" as you. That's why Kirk and Picard were able to be there at the same time, and why Kirk perceived himself as having only just arrived even though it was 78 years earlier from Picard's perspective.

So Guinan's "Nexus echo" wasn't some duplicate of herself living in sync with her -- it was the Guinan who was briefly inside the Nexus before the Enterprise-B beamed her out. She was in there once, so she would always be in there and always had been. Even if someone from millions of years in the future -- or the past -- entered the Nexus, they would find Guinan there, along with Kirk, Picard, and everyone else who'd ever been in the Nexus or ever would be. It's all one single simultaneous, timeless blob, and the passage of time outside has no effect on it.

 

That's probably the best explanation really. It's a bit hard to wrap your mind around because of the fact that it's outside of time. It's almost like trying to envision infinity.

But it explains why Picard was able to encounter "Guinan" in the Nexus, even though she had left....and why she can't go back with him.

And in a sense Dukhat is correct. An echo of Picard will also now always be in the Nexus, and a part of Kirk lives on in the Nexus as well, well, at least from a certain point of view anyway.

I'm not sure how fans view the Nexus overall, but it's actually a plot device that I liked. While I may complain about the method of Kirk's demise in Generations, I thought Generations was a decent enough film. I liked First Contact and Nemesis more, but I always thought Generations was a worthy enough Star Trek film in most respects. The Nexus was one of those elements I liked--because it wasn't your standard plot device.

 

That's how I always viewed it as well...just couldn't articulate it quite as well as this.

 

Guinan was in Nemesis

 

When Picard asked echo-Guinan to come with him, she said no,I'm already there (physical-Guinan), as if that was the reason she couldn't leave. She didn't simply say she couldn't leave.

Scotty (in Relics) seem to think that Kirk was in a position to come and save him.

I think Spock, Scotty and others did find a way to extract physical-Kirk from the Nexus, leaving behind echo-Kirk, and this is who Picard meet in the Nexus. Echo-Kirk is who left with Picard (because physical-Kirk was dead by that point outside the Nexus) and then there was no longer a echo of Kirk in the Nexus.

 

Not if the plot needs it alive, it doesn't. *glances over at Tarantino Trek story leak rumours*

 

Since time has no meaning in the Nexus, it doesn't matter what happens out in the "normal" spacetime continuum.
That's why I think there's still some version of Kirk, Picard and Soran in the Nexus.

Kor

 

I know. I believe I said in my post that Guinan would not appear for the rest of Generations, or the next two films (First Contact and Insurrection). The point of this exercise was to see what people thought coming out of theaters having just seen Generations, or even a few years down the road when wondering, prior to Nemesis, if Guinan had actually survived the Enterprise-D crash scene.

 

Well, Guinan did survive, because the timeline was reset so that the planet wasn’t destroyed by the supernova. But before that happened, her echo still existed in the Nexus even after she died the first time. So that kind of answers your question.

 

There must have been some fatalities when the Enterprise hit the ground, though. That's a pretty big collision, even if they managed to make it more of a "crash landing".

Kor

 

Yes, but we're talking about Guinan, who survived the crash, because she shows up again in Nemesis.

 

I've kind of blocked that movie out of my memory.

Kor

 

One of the writers of Generations, I believe it was Moore, acknowledged that little bit of discontinuity. In fact, they were aware of it when they wrote the movie. It really couldn't be helped.

I believe he's the one that came up with the idea that Scotty was just a bit disoriented after being in the transporter buffer for decades. I do remember in one of the novels Scotty appeared in after "Relics" they even mentioned that--and Scotty later was a bit embarrassed by failing to remember Kirk had 'died' (at least as far as he knew at that point).

But I agree with Christopher's assessment. It's the one that makes most sense and is consistent with Generations. Guinan can't leave the Nexus because she already did, 78 years prior (IIRC).

The novel "Engines of Destiny" actually does something like this. Scotty, sometime after "Relics" but before "Generations" goes back in time to rescue Captain Kirk just after he rescues the Enterprise-B (but before he is taken by the Nexus). He thinks he has all his I's dotted and T's crossed because he waited until just before the ribbon damages the Enterprise (so the crew, and his younger self, would still believe Kirk was lost) but later learns things have gone horribly wrong when he finds the Alpha Quadrant over-run by the Borg. I remember Kirk admonishing Scotty (gently) for messing with the timeline as they try to put things back. Of course, they never quite figure out how Scotty's actions resulted in the Borg taking over most of the Alpha Quadrant (we the readers of course know it's because Kirk wasn't there to help Picard so they died and weren't there to stop the Borg in First Contact).

 

My take, regarding Scotty, was that from his perspective: "Relics" takes place after TUC. When he thought Kirk was still around and the last Enterprise was the A. After the Jenolan crashed and he put himself in the transporter loop, he was rescued from it, like we saw. The assumption is Scotty stayed in the 24th Century. I think he didn't. I think Scotty sling-shotted himself around the sun and went back to the 23rd Century. Then the beginning of GEN happens, he's there when the Enterprise-B was commissioned, and was there when Kirk was lost.

In 1994, I figured Guinan survived the crash.

In FC, I didn't think anything of Guinan not being there if only because there was no time to show the Enterprise-E's equivalent of 10-Forward and I didn't think a ship like the E-E would have one. It felt to me like the Sovereign Class was supposed to be like the anti-Galaxy Class, nowhere near as cushy.

I didn't really think about it in INS.

Then in NEM, I saw her and I was like, "There's Guinan!" I didn't need to see that she survived, but I knew she did. Really, if she didn't survive in GEN, Ron Moore and Brannon Braga would've included that information in Picard's log at the end, or Picard would've said something about it in the closing scene of the film. Riker would've told him, "Sorry about Guinan" and Picard wouldn't be quite so upbeat, trying to see the positive. Even though the Enterprise was in ruins, it was replaceable; Guinan isn't.

Same deal with seeing Wesley in NEM (even though he wasn't in GEN, I thought I'd add that in there). Other people were wondering "How did that happen? Isn't he with the Traveller? Yadda, yadda, yadda!" I knew Wesley wouldn't stay with the Traveler because he was 21 when he hopped off with him. 21 is all about exploring different things before you settle down, and he eventually settled back down to Starfleet. That and if the Traveller liked Wesley (in that way) and it creeped Wesley out, he would've been out of there. Immediately. He would've left right away.

 

I'm not sure Kirk should be considered when mentioned being a person confined in the Nexus; just remember what the purpose of the Nexus was? What was seen from the Nexus is through the eyes of Picard, and it his fantasies we're seeing throughout the movie. It's best to say Kirk is dead when the Nexus blasted the lower levels of 1701-B, I know Scotty mentioned the phasing in and out transitions but the Enterprise wasn't phasing in and out when Kirk's corridor or section was blown off. The echo thing mentioned could just be Picard's brain trying to accept what he's seeing; like Jodie Foster seeing a representation of her father in the movie "Contact" but was in actuality an ALF.

 

When Picard meets echo Guinan in the Nexus she IS dead in the real world. Remember that the planet just exploded killing everyone. So there's no question that she's the echo of a dead person, even if she doesn't seem to know it.