Yes, no matter what happens, Janeway's job was secure.Realistically the premise was the first female captain so unless Chakotay underwent a sex change he was never going to sit in that chair full time.
If you could rewrite Voyager
- Thread starter Trekboy1993
- Start date
The premise was a ship alone, lost on the far side of the galaxy with a scientist-turned-captain leading the voyage to return home. During the casting of the character, though the producers were keen to have a woman in the role they interviewed both men and women for the role (due to studio influence but the producers won out in the end), at lease so sayeth Memory Alpha.Realistically the premise was the first female captain so unless Chakotay underwent a sex change he was never going to sit in that chair full time.
I remenber the brass were not convinced but it was the big news at the time. Mulgrew has talked about the executives lining up to watch her performance every day for a very long time. She said it was harrowing.
I thought she looked tense in some of them episodes...
Some might disagree, but given that they were lost on the other side of the galaxy, a little borrowing from "Lost" would have been nice. Not in every episode, mind you, but some Alpha Quadrant flashback scenes could have helped "flesh out" the characters. They did that in one episode, with Tuvok, and it was pretty good. Seeing some of the crucial moments in their lives that led them to where they were could have been a nice touch.
They did that twice with Tuvok.
I adore this idea. We could see B'lanna and Chakotay join the Maquis (which would expand our knowledge of the Maquis for those viewers new to Star Trek), Janeway on the Billings, Tom after being drummed out of Starfleet, just to name a few. I love character driven stories.
There's an episode where we see a young B'lanna, also one where we see a teenaged Chakotay. However, we don't see them joining the Maquis.
I was watching Extreme Risk last night and realised there is one thing I wish the show had touched on and that is survivor's guilt and Chakotay. He says he feels sad, angry and a little guilty he didn't die with them. I have always felt it was a missed opportunity that we got to hear Janeway talk about Mark getting married but we never see the flip side with Chakotay and the Maquis. It would also have played nicely into those rare times Chakotay openly disagrees with the captain. His almost obsession with protecting the crew even if it means breaking her orders as in Scorpion and Equinox would have been even more powerful imo. It would also have been interestingly if during his conversation with Tom in Year of Hell he basically said 'never again' and it was used as his reason for considering changing the timelines to help Voyager. Just a thought.
I don't think Chak was insane in those rare instances when he disobeyed Janeway's order. He was the one reasonable and she was insane. Her obsessive craziness is made clear in course oblivion where she probably ruined the only chance of her crew for survival.
I suppose my use of the word obsessive may be a bit strong and in no way am I suggesting he is insane but he is single minded when it comes to the safety of their crew. I also totally agree with the choices he made when he confronted Janeway in Equinox or changed her orders in Scorpion. Case in point she lost her way in Equinox, putting revenge before the safety of their crew. He fought back. The crew must always come first in his mind. Stop the alien attack first. Janeway, to her credit, recognises she crossed a few lines at the end and apologises in her own way. Its why he suggests a truce with the Kazon in Alliances. Its why he initially suggests leaving his 'son' in Kaxon hands, 'I have a duty to this crew.' He also agrees to help Annorax in Year of Hell to save Voyager. Then he suggests piracy in The Void. If they had played up Chakotay's own survivor's guilt about not saving or even dying with his Maquis friends (family), I feel it would have helped strengthen his reasons for doing what he does in all these situations. Its kind of frustrating to see a truly complex character with great potential created but not realised. And all it would have taken was one conversation with Janeway. Sigh...oh well. I love Voyager. Just wish little things like this were handled differently, particularly when there is a hint if it already in episodes like Extreme Risk. Tjmo
Okay, this thread lured me back to TrekBBS!
When you get down to Voyager problems, it's setting and characters. SO:
Characters
I think the main VOY issue was a lack of conflicting top characters and a flawless captain, so let's change that. Janeway is still Mulgrew, but she's more science-focused than any previous captain. She's brainy, introverted, and doesn't really have the common touch. She's also physically weak and poor at fighting.
These are vital flaws for the VOY situation. Because she finds it hard to connect with the crew, she faces new challenges trying to motivate them on their journey home, raise morale, and retain her authority. Because she's so bad at fighting, she needs to send in more capable crew members, which would itself breed resentment among the crew and inner conflict for Janeway.
Those flaws turn Tuvok and Chakotay from least compelling to most important. Chakotay looks the same, but he's also more charismatic and a strong leader. His Maquis background prompts him to respond more passionately and antagonistically to challenges than Janeway would, and he's a natural fighter. This sets up a nice contrast between the two where Janeway is actually the better leader but Chakotay is better liked among the crew and better able to react to combat situations. Over time, this would develop into a relationship where he trusts her and forms her main link with other officers/enlisted people.
On the other side, you have Tuvok. He represents Janeway's scientific side and generally acts as a counterpoint to Chakotay. When hard, ruthless decisions need to be made, it's Tuvok who makes them.
Secondary characters don't need quite as much work, but I'd say:
Can be briefer here, because I think they already nailed the setting, but only in Year of Hell. VOY should never have been allowed to keep functioning like any other ship. Food is bad, holodeck time is serious cut down or perhaps removed, raw materials become an issue, and parts of the ship slowly need to be cut off from life support or cannabalized for essential systems, so things get crowded.
This doesn't need to be the focus of the show, but living on Voyager should present challenges. This would help with the Janeway character since she'd be put under more pressure. It would also be nice to see conflicts between the authority/privileges of the officers and enlisted men. When conditions become worse, ideas of rank are called into question. This would also help the Maquis storyline since their command structure wouldn't be as strict.
Talking of Maquis, they don't immediately start wearing starfleet uniform. If that happens, it takes a while. I'd be tempted to have the first season or two roughly revolve around this conflict, potentially culminating with a mutiny.
FINALLY, Voyager wouldn't start 75 years from home. That was stupid. Made ludicrous jumps forward a foregone conclusion and really made the decision to return at all feel kinda dumb. Instead, they're maybe 20-25 years away. I'm flexible on this since it works against their being in the great unknown.
This is a longer post than I thought it would be. I hope it made sense.
When you get down to Voyager problems, it's setting and characters. SO:
Characters
I think the main VOY issue was a lack of conflicting top characters and a flawless captain, so let's change that. Janeway is still Mulgrew, but she's more science-focused than any previous captain. She's brainy, introverted, and doesn't really have the common touch. She's also physically weak and poor at fighting.
These are vital flaws for the VOY situation. Because she finds it hard to connect with the crew, she faces new challenges trying to motivate them on their journey home, raise morale, and retain her authority. Because she's so bad at fighting, she needs to send in more capable crew members, which would itself breed resentment among the crew and inner conflict for Janeway.
Those flaws turn Tuvok and Chakotay from least compelling to most important. Chakotay looks the same, but he's also more charismatic and a strong leader. His Maquis background prompts him to respond more passionately and antagonistically to challenges than Janeway would, and he's a natural fighter. This sets up a nice contrast between the two where Janeway is actually the better leader but Chakotay is better liked among the crew and better able to react to combat situations. Over time, this would develop into a relationship where he trusts her and forms her main link with other officers/enlisted people.
On the other side, you have Tuvok. He represents Janeway's scientific side and generally acts as a counterpoint to Chakotay. When hard, ruthless decisions need to be made, it's Tuvok who makes them.
Secondary characters don't need quite as much work, but I'd say:
- Doctor: Starts off as a blank slate and eventually develops a personality.
- Torres: Just better at her job. It seemed like other characters were just as good at engineering, which was never the case with Scotty, Geordi, or O'Brien. She shouldn't be Klingon because Klingons were deeply played out at this point and it never really seemed to matter. I'd make her a Bajoran - in fact, I'd make her quite like Major Kira. Because she's existed in harsh conditions, she doesn't mind those on Voyager as much and is dismissive of those who do. I imagine her being conflicted about returning to the Alpha quadrant at all.
- Tom: Basically the same - Tom was a good character.
Kim: Should be the heart of the show, becomes a counselor figure that people turn to for support. Charming and insightful, but not particularly motivated in terms of career and not very motivated to make his own decisions. Poor in high-pressure situations and maybe something of a coward.
- Neelix: Does not need to be in this show.
Can be briefer here, because I think they already nailed the setting, but only in Year of Hell. VOY should never have been allowed to keep functioning like any other ship. Food is bad, holodeck time is serious cut down or perhaps removed, raw materials become an issue, and parts of the ship slowly need to be cut off from life support or cannabalized for essential systems, so things get crowded.
This doesn't need to be the focus of the show, but living on Voyager should present challenges. This would help with the Janeway character since she'd be put under more pressure. It would also be nice to see conflicts between the authority/privileges of the officers and enlisted men. When conditions become worse, ideas of rank are called into question. This would also help the Maquis storyline since their command structure wouldn't be as strict.
Talking of Maquis, they don't immediately start wearing starfleet uniform. If that happens, it takes a while. I'd be tempted to have the first season or two roughly revolve around this conflict, potentially culminating with a mutiny.
FINALLY, Voyager wouldn't start 75 years from home. That was stupid. Made ludicrous jumps forward a foregone conclusion and really made the decision to return at all feel kinda dumb. Instead, they're maybe 20-25 years away. I'm flexible on this since it works against their being in the great unknown.
This is a longer post than I thought it would be. I hope it made sense.
Welcome to the board. Some interesting thoughts, I admit I like the idea of maintaining greater division between the two crews for longer, as well as Voyager being far less well preserved as it was on the show (especially cutting out holodecks, those two huge rooms would make great secondary cargo bays or fabrication workships, something practical and useful for their journey).
One little things seems really out of place though:
One little things seems really out of place though:
Janeway will be trained by Starfleet and would have to meet certain standards, which would include personal combat and fitness levels, that she would have to maintain to be certified competent for duty. Also as Captain, her place is meant to be on the ship overseeing everything--just like Picard did and sent Riker on away missions.
I can see the sense here, but it's something that's always bothered me about Star Trek. Okay, captains will have taken physical combat as part of their training, but should they all be so great at hand-to-hand combat? They should be passable, but I find it odd when a captain like Janeway is able to beat stronger people who are obviously more accustomed to fighting. This is sometimes necessary for the story, but I'd argue it wasn't with Janeway.
But my main point remains with character dynamics. Janeway needed some kind of flaw to bring the rest of the crew, and particularly Chakotay, into sharper focus. This is an older woman who doesn't look particularly strong, and she doesn't seem to have been involved in many combat-heavy assignments. She's very much mental over physical. I just think from a story-telling, character-driven basis, it would make sense for her to be one of the poorer fighters instead of seeming perfectly comfortable dealing out those blows, especially when dealing with these tougher environments and having to project a sense of power when her authority wasn't backed by the rest of starfleet.
Thanks for the welcome
Unfortunately VOY borrowed from the TNG thinking that humans in the 24th century don't have flaws.
Janeway wouldn't be a combat expert, she'd know how to look after herself but she would have limits. The only time I can think about her going one-on-one with an enemy was the giant virus in "Macrocosm", though I could be wrong. Had she been more inexperienced, so the weights of commanding a ship lost in the DQ with minimal resources and no back up started to build up upon her and she faced doubts about herself and if she could get the crew home (like what she faced in "Night"), then that would be something to build upon, something a lot of people have faced in various situations (Janeway is often criticised for how unevenly she is written, if this was actually done on purpose to show her internal struggles then it would make more sense, though as time went on she would become stronger and more sure of herself, the two crews, and hold out more hope for getting home). Chakotay could have a far more gung-ho manner, sticking with his Maquis skills and able to better survive by playing it fast and loose, using what's on hand and dipping into somewhat less than legal activity when they didn't, which pushes Janeway and her Starfleet resolve further. The two would clash over ideology, their approaches to their dire situation and how they can hold on to what makes them 'human' when it would be easier and understandable to lose their cloak of civility.
That would make them a more dynamic pairing, matching intellects and mental strengths as opposed to physical strengths (otherwise Tuvok would wipe the floor with both of them and most of the other characters without breaking a sweat
).
Janeway wouldn't be a combat expert, she'd know how to look after herself but she would have limits. The only time I can think about her going one-on-one with an enemy was the giant virus in "Macrocosm", though I could be wrong. Had she been more inexperienced, so the weights of commanding a ship lost in the DQ with minimal resources and no back up started to build up upon her and she faced doubts about herself and if she could get the crew home (like what she faced in "Night"), then that would be something to build upon, something a lot of people have faced in various situations (Janeway is often criticised for how unevenly she is written, if this was actually done on purpose to show her internal struggles then it would make more sense, though as time went on she would become stronger and more sure of herself, the two crews, and hold out more hope for getting home). Chakotay could have a far more gung-ho manner, sticking with his Maquis skills and able to better survive by playing it fast and loose, using what's on hand and dipping into somewhat less than legal activity when they didn't, which pushes Janeway and her Starfleet resolve further. The two would clash over ideology, their approaches to their dire situation and how they can hold on to what makes them 'human' when it would be easier and understandable to lose their cloak of civility.
That would make them a more dynamic pairing, matching intellects and mental strengths as opposed to physical strengths (otherwise Tuvok would wipe the floor with both of them and most of the other characters without breaking a sweat
).
Really?!
I remind you that being willing to die so that honor and justice may live, is the heart of the commitment of every soldier, ranked (officers) or not, deserving wearing the uniform. It is in their DNA and Janeway's (Starfleet) crew knew it. That's surely why they never once questionned her decision to destroy the array, only mean to protect the Ocampa population.The only ones who critized her decision was the Maquis soldiers minus Chakotay, who was himself a former Starfleet officer, understood the decision - minus Chakotay, who was himself a former Starfleet, understood the decision -.
I bet that Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer and their respective crews would also have acted.
From my perspective the characters on VOY are quite flawed, far more so than TNG anyway. Janeway has difficulty coping psychologically after stranding the ship in the DQ, Seven has all sorts of obvious baggage from being assimilated and de-assimilated, B'Elanna has issues with her ethnicity, and Paris has his past mistakes and criminal record. One of the things I love about the series is the fact that the characters seem more realistic and flawed with occasionally poor coping skills, which makes them more believable to me.
Janeway was more a product of the writing not following any sort of coherent path or arc. Seven's overcoming extensive trauma which isn't really a flaw. Torres isn't 100% human so is therefore allowed to have issues to deal with. Paris' only flaw was his smugness, never got the impression he'd really faced up to his part in the deaths of his shipmates or the fallout from it--how he spoke about it in "Caretaker" was all very flippant and blasé, and after the pilot it never seemed to be an issue. But that's how it always seemed to me.
Maybe define exactly what constitutes a "flaw"... none of the characters on VOY act perfect or even close to perfect from my vantage point anyway. They all (for the most part) make mistakes at various points in the show, they all display poor judgement at various points in the show, and at least a few of them have the aforementioned "baggage" (which, as a fellow human with baggage, I deem this to be a flaw).
I also wasn't aware that species not 100% human were exempt. that's a stipulation that wasn't in your other post.
Anyway, just a difference in perspective and opinion... I do agree with you on TNG characters in this sense, but to me they are far different from the VOY characters in this regard.
I also wasn't aware that species not 100% human were exempt. that's a stipulation that wasn't in your other post.
Anyway, just a difference in perspective and opinion...
I do agree with you on TNG characters in this sense, but to me they are far different from the VOY characters in this regard.
