If you could rewrite Voyager
- Thread starter hux
- Start date
You know what? Forget that last post, if anybody thinks VOY could've ended the Borg threat but didn't like how VOY did so and doesn't want to elaborate then it's not a problem. I've been working myself up too much over this.
I personally just think the Borg are too one-dimensional to be a recurring enemy like the Romulans or Cardassians and it would've been better to just get rid of them entirely after BOBW in such a way that they couldn't be brought back.
I personally just think the Borg are too one-dimensional to be a recurring enemy like the Romulans or Cardassians and it would've been better to just get rid of them entirely after BOBW in such a way that they couldn't be brought back.
If I could rewrite voyager eh? Hmmmmmm.
First and foremost, ENSURE THRESHOLD NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And make it like nuBSG in someway. Minus the stupid shakey cameras and irritating zoom and focus effects.
And maybe set it during TOS
First and foremost, ENSURE THRESHOLD NEVER HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And make it like nuBSG in someway. Minus the stupid shakey cameras and irritating zoom and focus effects.
And maybe set it during TOS
In the rewrite I did (and constant am rewriting) I basically made it an "Anti-DS9". Whereas DS9 was about showing the problems and potential corruption of the Federation, my VOY would've dealt more with creating a Delta Federation (or helping to rebuild, in my story) and showing the positive force it has for good.
That sounds awesome. Much better than my idea
FINALLY, someone who GETS it! The Borg were just DONE after BOBW.
Saquist
Commodore
The moment VOY decided to follow the First Contact Zombies/Queen approach for the Borg it was doomed to be mediorce. But notice that Scorpion was created after but according to speculations it was after First Contact....clearly they decided not to pursue the queen arc but changed their minds later.
I can only imagine how crappy...or more crappy the Episode might have been after the Queen of Time Filler was added to that rather deflated conclusion.
They didn't need the Queen in Scorpion because they had Seven to fulfill the same role: Having someone for the crew to interact with that wasn't some big voice coming from nowhere.
Have you ever seen Tron? What the Borg needed from day one was for them to be like the characters of the MCP and Sark.
The Borg Collective would be like the MCP, a big "face" (maybe a skull made out of computer binary code) that gives orders to a Drone that is the Speaker for the Borg. The Speaker would have a personality and emotions, but still would be subservient to the big Collective Skull.
Have you ever seen Tron? What the Borg needed from day one was for them to be like the characters of the MCP and Sark.
The Borg Collective would be like the MCP, a big "face" (maybe a skull made out of computer binary code) that gives orders to a Drone that is the Speaker for the Borg. The Speaker would have a personality and emotions, but still would be subservient to the big Collective Skull.
The Queen puts a face on an enemy which shouldn't have any face but that of the guy standing next to you, in 5 minutes.
The Borg are just Space Zombies.
A virus driven by their own moral imperative beyond good and evil.
Humanizing them was a mistake.
Centralizing them was a mistake.
The Borg are just Space Zombies.
A virus driven by their own moral imperative beyond good and evil.
Humanizing them was a mistake.
Centralizing them was a mistake.
No one had a problem with Locutus being used as a "Speaker" for the Borg in BOBW, or Seven being a liaison for the Borg in Scorpion. And no one has a problem with the Collective being able to communicate as well. I'm just saying that the Collective should be present the way the MCP was present in Tron, and it should be able to order around any agents it creates for specific tasks that it doesn't want to bother itself with.
And why SHOULD the Collective be so monotone and robotic? If it's made up of trillions of sentient minds (the original Borg probably being the folks who WILLINGLY joined themselves together like that), then it should also have their malice and instabilities, anger and neuroses thousands times over. Logically, the Collective should be capable of truly insane actions.
If not, then it's not really a Collective but some kind of overriding single force that's forced over several unwilling hosts. Which makes it pretty boring really. Borg that really DO explore what a Collective mind/Gestalt entity would really be like would be more interesting.
And why SHOULD the Collective be so monotone and robotic? If it's made up of trillions of sentient minds (the original Borg probably being the folks who WILLINGLY joined themselves together like that), then it should also have their malice and instabilities, anger and neuroses thousands times over. Logically, the Collective should be capable of truly insane actions.
If not, then it's not really a Collective but some kind of overriding single force that's forced over several unwilling hosts. Which makes it pretty boring really. Borg that really DO explore what a Collective mind/Gestalt entity would really be like would be more interesting.
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Saquist
Commodore
Or they didn't need time filler.
A drone or Seven of Nine wouldn't have made any difference just like it didn't in with Hugh in TNG.
I haven't seen it...I'm too young for that.
When Janeway went to the Q Continuum and they they dressed it up as a roadside town...I didn't need it.
When the Caretaker dressed up the array as a farm...I didn't need it.
In Matrix showed the machines as a baby face...I didn't need it.
And I didn't need a physical representation for the collective Borg consciousness. I didn't need it because it's 2 Dimensional, Lame and Predictable. In other words...it's human. I much prefer the alien concept with dealing with an alien societyy that was initially conceived with the Borg in the first place. There were much more interesting ways to show this but VOY chose the lazy and obvious standard sci fi method of putting a human face on that which is inhuman because they think we're too stupid to get.
That's a failure to elicit the intelligence of your audience.
That's a failure to force the audience to accept a new concept of conciousness because the producers think we won't understand how decision can be made collectively faster than individually so they stick an authority figure into the middle of it.
I never saw a zombie flick that needed a conscious bad guy.
Alien didn't need a conscious bad guy
Aliens didn't need a conscious bad guy
I am Legend didn't need a conscious bad guy
The Voyage Home didn't need a conscious bad guy
The Day After Tomorrow didn't need a conscious bad guy
Story telling doesn't need a bad guy to be good
Fairy tales do...
Alien/Aliens/Alien 3 DID have a bad guy: The Company. The aliens weren't the true enemy the other humans were. And they were personified in each movie: Ash, Burke, Bishop II. And Aliens also had the Alien QUEEN.
I am Legend (the original story) was way different and had the vampires as sentient beings, so it doesn't apply.
By "Voyage Home" you mean the Trek film? The bad guy there was the Probe, which wasn't really malevolent so it doesn't count in this scenario.
Day after Tomorrow was a horrible film...
The Borg are a malevolent, sentient force. They aren't Zombies since zombies are each in it for themselves and aren't unified. They'd easily attack or oppose one another given the chance. The Borg are a unified force, a sentient force with purpose and being.
And if you want to use them as an enemy, then you have to have them interact with the heroes in a real way.
What I'm suggesting is to make them more like the Zerg Swarm, with the Collective Mind being the Overmind and it creating various Speakers to serve as its Cerebrates.
Besides, all the way from day one they portrayed the Borg as having a representation of some kind: Picard was taken to the Big White Spot that talked in the "Voice of the Legion" thing. That's still representation. All I'm saying is replace the Big White Spot with a 3-D stream of binary code, and that Binary Code then forms a mouth out of the numbers that speaks. It's a cool effect (It worked in Transformers) and gets it across that this is the Collective communicating.
I am Legend (the original story) was way different and had the vampires as sentient beings, so it doesn't apply.
By "Voyage Home" you mean the Trek film? The bad guy there was the Probe, which wasn't really malevolent so it doesn't count in this scenario.
Day after Tomorrow was a horrible film...
The Borg are a malevolent, sentient force. They aren't Zombies since zombies are each in it for themselves and aren't unified. They'd easily attack or oppose one another given the chance. The Borg are a unified force, a sentient force with purpose and being.
And if you want to use them as an enemy, then you have to have them interact with the heroes in a real way.
What I'm suggesting is to make them more like the Zerg Swarm, with the Collective Mind being the Overmind and it creating various Speakers to serve as its Cerebrates.
Besides, all the way from day one they portrayed the Borg as having a representation of some kind: Picard was taken to the Big White Spot that talked in the "Voice of the Legion" thing. That's still representation. All I'm saying is replace the Big White Spot with a 3-D stream of binary code, and that Binary Code then forms a mouth out of the numbers that speaks. It's a cool effect (It worked in Transformers) and gets it across that this is the Collective communicating.
Saquist
Commodore
The company wasn't the primary bad guy as seen from the title of the films. That's why as part of the horriblly bad 2 parters Voyager had...Scorpion was descent. A Good concept. The very name of the episode denotes an unconscious bad guy, predictable and inhuman...dangerous in an almost feral type of way. Can it be controlled was the question...
The Queen would have been just as awful here as in the other places she's been. She's never made any difference in the episodes she's been in.
The movie does count.
I don't have to read the original story for the example to apply.
Still an unconscious bad guy.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say it had to be a malevolent bad guy.
I said unconscious bad guys
I found it fascinating
Us as the enemy. Enemies of Life and our struggle against ourselves, it was symbolic and prophetic.
They were described in VOY as a force of nature before the arrival of the queen...neither good nor evil. Guinan said something similar.
Only if you want a corny and predictable story of good guys and bad guys which means you aren't interested in telling something new which aptly descrbes all of the Borg Queen stories.
The Zerg...
They were interesting but the same as what we've always seen and useful for the game format...but yes...predictable. The struggle wasn't so much that of the good guys and bad zerg...it was three way conflicts that were much more complex than just ...defeat the zerg.
From day one the Borg were not a hive feeding from one source but a collective. They weren't snobby aristocrats but wanted to improve the standard of life for all. There was no quest for perfection, just an erie in human force of change.
First Contact screwed with that to tell a crappy story.
These writers can't do any better.
The Company WAS the primary bad guy, the one who caused the situation in the first place. Just because the movies are named "Alien" doesn't mean the Aliens are the true villains, they're just part of the plot. The real bad guys of the Alien series are the humans. It's perfect misdirection.
The Queen works fine if it's made clear she's just a construct meant to allow the Collective to communicate with others. Like if the Borg run into beings as powerful as them, or species who might WELCOME assimilation.
Actually, in the recent movie it's implied that the lead Darkseeker IS a sentient being (all the Darkseekers are). In the deleted original version it's made clear they aren't zombies but sentient beings.
The Borg have already been shown all the way from TNG that they were malevolent and not unintentional villains.
This whole "Force of Nature" thing was wrong from day one. They are a sentient force, not a natural force. They ALWAYS have been a sentient force that intentionally do things. The problem was that they were too overpowered and overly malevolent for the writers to properly analyze the possibilities of a Hive Mind Civilization, like what happens when the majority of the assimilated people are insane. Or if they all hate each other.
"Q Who?" was a good guy vs bad guy story, so was BOBW.
That's exactly what I mean, Scorpion works so well because it's not just Feds vs Borg it's the Feds getting involved in the Borg's struggle with someone who can fight back. You want to tell a story about the Boring Collective Borg, then make sure there's another side to the story as well aside from the Feds. Like an energy being that can easily take over the Borg, or a separate Collective at war with the Primary Collective. Or renegade Borg (Descent).
The Borg were a Hive Mind from Day One. One mind controlling all others. If they were a Collective than they'd be made up of folks who WILLINGLY gave into the Borg and became what they were. Which is ANOTHER wasted story, what if they ran into folks who were pulled out of the Collective but wanted to go back (despite having ALL their prior memories) because there were never assimilated in the first place but WILLINGLY gave themselves to the Borg?
Better care should have been put into the Borg from Day One. They were too boring the way they were made.
The Queen works fine if it's made clear she's just a construct meant to allow the Collective to communicate with others. Like if the Borg run into beings as powerful as them, or species who might WELCOME assimilation.
Actually, in the recent movie it's implied that the lead Darkseeker IS a sentient being (all the Darkseekers are). In the deleted original version it's made clear they aren't zombies but sentient beings.
The Borg have already been shown all the way from TNG that they were malevolent and not unintentional villains.
This whole "Force of Nature" thing was wrong from day one. They are a sentient force, not a natural force. They ALWAYS have been a sentient force that intentionally do things. The problem was that they were too overpowered and overly malevolent for the writers to properly analyze the possibilities of a Hive Mind Civilization, like what happens when the majority of the assimilated people are insane. Or if they all hate each other.
"Q Who?" was a good guy vs bad guy story, so was BOBW.
That's exactly what I mean, Scorpion works so well because it's not just Feds vs Borg it's the Feds getting involved in the Borg's struggle with someone who can fight back. You want to tell a story about the Boring Collective Borg, then make sure there's another side to the story as well aside from the Feds. Like an energy being that can easily take over the Borg, or a separate Collective at war with the Primary Collective. Or renegade Borg (Descent).
The Borg were a Hive Mind from Day One. One mind controlling all others. If they were a Collective than they'd be made up of folks who WILLINGLY gave into the Borg and became what they were. Which is ANOTHER wasted story, what if they ran into folks who were pulled out of the Collective but wanted to go back (despite having ALL their prior memories) because there were never assimilated in the first place but WILLINGLY gave themselves to the Borg?
Better care should have been put into the Borg from Day One. They were too boring the way they were made.
Saquist
Commodore
I don't agree.
A Cause of the Hero struggles could be by Protagonist or Antagonist or even coincidence, inadvertent confluence. The Title is a direct relation about the subject matter of the film. They are the plot and force the protagonist must over come. I have little reason to conclude otherwise.
I understand. It's meant to facilitate my understanding. I don't need it. My horizons with Sci Fi are considerably broader and I think most people could eventually appreciate the lack of personified avatars if introduced properly and competently with the tools of the visual and audio aids we have at our disposal in film.
Locutus was different. He wasn't just an Avatar. He was their captain this story became not about understanding the Borg through an dispassionate automaton but rather through a comrade. That's why it's called "The Best of Both Worlds" That's why Guinan had such an important part facilitating Captain Riker's need to leave what he knew of Picard behind in order to defeat him because by taking him they gave them a glimmer of hope in stopping the Borg. The were fulling a concept for the episode an not just filling time with. Locutus as an Avatar fulfills a purpose in the plot. The same was true of Seven of Nine...she eventually betrays them as the Scorpion...because it's their nature to assimilate and consume. It introduces a new character the story is fulfilled.
Maybe in their actions but not their intentions
"We only wish to raise quality of life for all..."
It wasn't untill the Borg Queen that the Borg took the persona of being petty, evil, and vindictive, snobbish and aristicratic attitude in their pursuit devoid of all good intentions, sinster and evil.
The Zombie skin, The Queen seducing data, gloating and monologuing created the borg as they are now. A wild animal isn't evil, it's just doing according to instinct, a hurricane isn't evil, it's just one of the many forces of nature and like wise with the Borg before the Queen.
True they are sentient and that is a distinct difference from the Collective Consciousness but the metaphor is meant to convey their rather impartial nature because they have no "political conquest, wealth, or power as you know it" which reduce them that of Hive organism or programing.
Far From it. Q was the catalyst the Borg were a collective not a singular individual. Locutus was a bad guy but he was more because of what he meant for the crew. He wasn't even primary but a hyphenate to the Borg, they only fought him for half the episode.
I agree that these elements ad more but the Borg are interesting enough themselves in terms of mystery and discovery in terms of their origins or in terms of our destruction but you can't merely pursue a borg story just for the sake of Borg story. So the Borg did need to be ended quickly but the way Voyager did it was completely deflating. The Federation should have been brought into the Delta Quadrant for the Final year to put an end to the Borg Threat once and for all in a climatic battle.
They were related to as a Hive bodily. The Hive Mind never came until First Contact. Concerning their Mind, they were called a Collective, all thinking as one WE instead of I. "We are the Borg. If it was one mind why refer to yourself as WE?
Ultimately it was a good concept one that at the time we hadn't seen very often if ever. Humans as automatons, the ceasing of free will the melding of tech and flesh, it was a curious combination of the body snatches and terminator. I earnestly believe if they had kept their coarse and not wondered into tedium the Borg would be a frighten force even to day....maybe even mythic like Sauron and the Sith.
The original specs on the borg were that they were insects, but the spfx people scared the shit out of the accountants and the beetle borgs were gimmicked into cyborgs.
You know this.
Bee telepathy, the hive mind...
Some of the original concepts were adapted and survived.
I'm approaching the end of the second season of Andromeda. The costume department should have been put up against a wall and shot, but I'm capticvated by Tyr Annasassi(sp?) prancing around and insisting that his captain is insane and weak of spirit and flawed mentally cockblocking him at every turn because they come from psychologically opposing sides of humanity...
Chakotay was a consummate yesman.
A bobble head could have done Voyager's XOs job as well.
(The Blonde, Becka, at one point in late season one actually said that Time travel gives her a head ache... )
Meanwhile they had a Kes figure who was too happy and shiny... Smurfy really. And when they came to a conclusion that they wanted to replace the adorable Imp sprite girl with a scary she-Conan the barbarianette, did they (By "they" do I mean Majel Barret?) fire their adorable little lady? No. Laura got replaced with a future version of her character with sai and dreadlocks. The actress kept her job, but changed her make up.
"Sigh".
If only poor wee Jenny was treated half so well that they asked her to audition for the role of the new borg.
You know this.
Bee telepathy, the hive mind...
Some of the original concepts were adapted and survived.
I'm approaching the end of the second season of Andromeda. The costume department should have been put up against a wall and shot, but I'm capticvated by Tyr Annasassi(sp?) prancing around and insisting that his captain is insane and weak of spirit and flawed mentally cockblocking him at every turn because they come from psychologically opposing sides of humanity...
Chakotay was a consummate yesman.
A bobble head could have done Voyager's XOs job as well.
(The Blonde, Becka, at one point in late season one actually said that Time travel gives her a head ache...
)Meanwhile they had a Kes figure who was too happy and shiny... Smurfy really. And when they came to a conclusion that they wanted to replace the adorable Imp sprite girl with a scary she-Conan the barbarianette, did they (By "they" do I mean Majel Barret?) fire their adorable little lady? No. Laura got replaced with a future version of her character with sai and dreadlocks. The actress kept her job, but changed her make up.
"Sigh".
If only poor wee Jenny was treated half so well that they asked her to audition for the role of the new borg.
Well, we'll just have to disagree then.
I'm saying that in-universe it makes sense for the Borg to create avatars. They're not idiots, what if they run into folks who would WANT to become Borg or aliens who are powerful enough that they can match the Borg? In that case, diplomacy is a possibility so they can create an Ambassador Agent to serve that function.
Guinan said that diplomacy with the Borg was possible.
Yes, that's why there's nothing wrong with the idea of the Collective creating Agents to serve its will. Like Borg Cerebrates to control Mini-Collectives of their own while still reporting back to the Central Collective Mind.
The "we wish to raise quality of life" thing is just BS on their part. The Borg are in it for their own sake, and just see overall improvement of life as a side-benefit but not a true goal of theirs.
The Borg are sentient beings that move and assimilate with purpose. Comparing them to wild animals or natural disasters was wrong from day one. They should never have been compared to those things in the first place.
I just would have had the 8472 kill them all at the end of "Scorpion" (while also making the 8472 less powerful) and then just have the VOY crew negotiate the 8472 leaving our dimension forever.
They were referred to as a Hive Mind in "BOBW" as well. The "We" probably comes from the original Borg who willingly joined together into one and now that original gestalt being forces its' will on all others.
The Sith work because they're individuals, supervillains. Sauron is also and individual and the archetype evil overlord.
If the Borg had been portrayed more like the Zerg, then they'd still be around to this day.
Frankly, they were an alright concept that was not totally executed right in their VERY FIRST appearance. More thought was needed to be put in them right from day one.
Saquist
Commodore
I thought she said "you can't not that I have ever known"
I think you're taking my statement of a one time story arc for a full time theme. I wouldn't want this continuously done. It's clearly not their MO otherwise they would have one in all communications. We would have seen the Queen at first if that was the case and every time.
...er...I don't go for the profanity thing, Anwar when people speak to me, it's just not my language.
You don't have to believe it. That's not what I'm saying but clearly they believed it. I think if we were told how the Borg were created at some point then we would understand that perhaps that the benign beginning of the Collective itself. I don't think they ever gave that a chance.
Literally, yes that true, but metaphors bridge the gap of people and objects that you wouldn't immediately associate with one another. The point I guess would be that they are either emotionless or beyond our sense of good or evil even while being sentient. Sort of like an insect horde that proceeds with but a single purpose...consume and assimilate.
Frankly I really wish that would have happened in END GAME. It would have been fantastic and more believable. Janeway delivers the Virus while 8472 keeps them busy. In that we think alike.
I did a search on the scripts and didn't find Hive Mind there. Could you have the dialogue?
It's accurate to say that the Sith work because they are supervillains and that they appeal as polar opposites to super hero's. I couldn't draw the conclusion that they work by necessity of their individuality.
Many Villians have worked with individuality, such as the Aliens and Terminator or the Predators which never gave you any clue to characterization.
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