If You Could Rewrite DS9

[HugeLobes]

That was never at all credible. If the Female Changeling had said to Odo in that same episode 'Come home to the link and we will withdraw all our forces from the AQ and never return.' he would have agreed without hesitation. The nature of her actions proved again and again that the Dominion cared about *nothing* more than eliminating any perceived threat to their existence, even if that came at the cost of Odo.

I feel like at the time the Female Changeling would have been like:

At that point, the Dominion thought they could win, so there was no need to compromise. Getting Odo to return was a different kind of goal. They seemed mostly happy to let him figure out his own path and return to the link in time of his own accord, which is exactly what happened.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I feel like at the time the Female Changeling would have been like:

At that point, the Dominion thought they could win, so there was no need to compromise. Getting Odo to return was a different kind of goal. They seemed mostly happy to let him figure out his own path and return to the link in time of his own accord, which is exactly what happened.

Sure enough, but even so, they were perfectly happy to lie to Odo and use him from the very beginning and they hardly ever made any serious effort to convince him to stay with them. They may have been perfectly happy playing the long game secure in the knowledge that he'd return eventually, but that being the case still obviously puts the lie to her claims that he was more important to them than anything else. If he were actually that important they wouldn't be sitting around for decades just waiting for him to show up on his own.

 

[HugeLobes]

Sure enough, but even so, they were perfectly happy to lie to Odo and use him from the very beginning and they hardly ever made any serious effort to convince him to stay with them. They may have been perfectly happy playing the long game secure in the knowledge that he'd return eventually, but that being the case still obviously puts the lie to her claims that he was more important to them than anything else. If he were actually that important they wouldn't be sitting around for decades just waiting for him to show up on his own.

Eh, I don't know. They seem pretty good at multi-tasking. I always got the impression they didn't mind if it took centuries if it happened eventually, but that's just my interpretation. They'd have more to do in the meantime, and I think they'd be fine lying to him to achieve a very important secondary goal.

 

[Tosk]

The Dominion surrenders when Odo agrees to return home willingly (and cure the Great Link) so clearly it was not a lie. Did it seem like a genuine statement all the time? Maybe, maybe not. But it was stated and then shown to be true regardless of some bumps along the way.

 

[HugeLobes]

The Dominion surrenders when Odo agrees to return home willingly (and cure the Great Link) so clearly it was not a lie.

Circumstances were totally different by that point. Great Link was close to death and Dominion forces in the AQ had been crushed.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The Dominion surrenders when Odo agrees to return home willingly (and cure the Great Link) so clearly it was not a lie. Did it seem like a genuine statement all the time? Maybe, maybe not. But it was stated and then shown to be true regardless of some bumps along the way.

Operative words in that sentence: 'cure the great link'. Exactly like I said, survival is everything to the Founders. Odo is optional.

 

[Tosk]

Operative words in that sentence: 'cure the great link'. Exactly like I said, survival is everything to the Founders. Odo is optional.

Odo curing the Link is never stated to be a condition of surrender. The facts we have are that she agrees to stand trial, and that Odo intends to rejoin the Great Link. But the two are not explicitly linked (no pun intended) as though one equals the other. I have no doubt it played a part, but nothing in the dialogue shows it to be the reason.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Odo curing the Link is never stated to be a condition of surrender. The facts we have are that she agrees to stand trial, and that Odo intends to rejoin the Great Link. But the two are not explicitly linked (no pun intended) as though one equals the other. I have no doubt it played a part, but nothing in the dialogue shows it to be the reason.

Well, the dialogue skips over THE reason entirely, so by that logic you simply can't say why she chose to surrender. But it does explicitly link Odo's return to his people with curing them, so...

Also, there is this:

ROSS: Four hundred years ago, a victorious general spoke the following words at the end of another costly war. Today the guns are silent. A great tragedy has ended. We have known the bitterness of defeat and the exultation of triumph. From both we have learned there can be no going back. We must go forward to preserve in peace what we've won in war.
(Douglas McArthur, WW2. The Founder is escorted from the table.)
FOUNDER: It's up to you now, Odo.

and

KIRA: You could come back, you know, once you've cured your people.
ODO: I could.
KIRA: But you're not going to do that.
ODO: Nerys. You know my feelings for you will never change, but I have to do this. My people need me. They need to know what I know, to learn what I've learned from living among solids. It's the only way they'll ever learn to trust you.

Which I'd say strongly implies that the Founders will not just accept Odo's presence as a fair trade for ending the war. They're going to have to be convinced not to keep up their hostilities with the AQ. Because Odo is not actually more important to them.

 

[Tosk]

It's the only way they'll ever learn to trust you.

Which I'd say strongly implies that the Founders will not just accept Odo's presence as a fair trade for ending the war.

Whereas I respectfully say it means only what Odo said. That he wants them to learn to trust solids. He doesn't say he needs to go home to convince them to stay true to the bargain, he says he wants to teach them to trust. (A deal with the Federation doesn't mean the Dominion won't still be a ruthless subjugator in its own territory. Odo teaching them to trust again may make for a "nicer" Gamma Quadrant some day.) Of course, we'll never agree on this but I say that's a good thing. I like that the writing flits back and forth between implications rather than just saying everything right matter of fact. Makes for more interesting conversations.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Whereas I respectfully say it means only what Odo said. That he wants them to learn to trust solids. He doesn't say he needs to go home to convince them to stay true to the bargain, he says he wants to teach them to trust. (A deal with the Federation doesn't mean the Dominion won't still be a ruthless subjugator in its own territory. Odo teaching them to trust again may make for a "nicer" Gamma Quadrant some day.) Of course, we'll never agree on this but I say that's a good thing. I like that the writing flits back and forth between implications rather than just saying everything right matter of fact. Makes for more interesting conversations.

Fair enough, though I'm not sure how 'it's up to you now' makes any sense as a line outside the context of protecting the peace she just signed.

 

[Tosk]

Fair enough, though I'm not sure how 'it's up to you now' makes any sense as a line outside the context of protecting the peace she just signed.

Wouldn't that be because it's his turn now, to do what he told her what he would do once it was all over. He's going home, and the cure is going with him.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Wouldn't that be because it's his turn now, to do what he told her what he would do once it was all over. He's going home, and the cure is going with him.

That would imply she believed he might not cure the link even after she kept her word. Doesn't really track with his character or hers, imo.

 

[Tosk]

That would imply she believed he might not cure the link even after she kept her word.

How so? (Not being argumentative, I really don't understand why it would imply that.)

 

[Grendelsbayne]

How so? (Not being argumentative, I really don't understand why it would imply that.)

Because the phrase inherently implies difficulty or struggle. The show gave us a clear look at the physical process of sharing the cure and it was as easy as you could possibly ask for. It was easier than 90% of what you and I do every day. So if the physical process is so easy, then she apparently sees some sort of struggle in his mental/emotional state, like he feels torn about whether or not to do it. Otherwise the phrase makes no sense.

Unless, as it seems to me, she's not talking about the cure at all. If she's telling Odo to take his shot at convincing the Link that Solids are good people, then the phrase makes perfect sense. And it makes more sense thematically with the rest of the scene for that to be the subject of this line, and it makes more sense as part of Odo's ongoing character arc through the episode in which he pretty much explicitly sets himself up as the teacher to his people. All of these things could theoretically be separate and have nothing to do with each other and therefore need not necessarily line up thematically - but all of them taken together as an overarching theme paint a much stronger picture and give the narrative purpose.

 

[Discofan]

Something I would definitely rewrite (without changing much of what has been filmed) is Luther Sloan's story.

To me, it's obvious that the Luther Sloan we know would never fall in Julian Bashir's stupid trap.

So here is what I think must have happened:

Section 31 realized that the disease would not kill the founders fast enough and that very likely before dying the Founders would order their soldiers to fight to the last man or even worse to make new soldiers with their generation chambers to replace the dead ones so that the war would at best cause the death of billions of more people in the Quadrant and at worst could mean the end of all "solid" life in the Galaxy and truth be told it's something the cruel founders are quite likely to do. So it was decided that a modified version of the virus would, instead of exterminating the founders, control their minds to make them obedient and amenable to peace with the "solids".

So here's how that plan would proceed:

First: Odo's disease, which was in a dormant state, would be quickened in order to make Bashir desperate to find a cure and at the same time too short on time to do anything about it by himself. (the quickening was always an option for 31 feared that Odo could defect to the enemy) The quickening is either triggered by remote or by a spy on the station touching Odo casually.

Second: Sloane would make sure that Bashir gets his hands on a Romulan Mind Probe.

Third: Sloane sends a clone of himself, dumbed down so that he would sincerely fall for Julian's trap. That clone would think he's the real Sloane (Just as a clone of Miles thought he was the real Miles). He would be instructed to resist and at the same time make sure that Julian gets away with the "cure", apparently by the skin of its teeth, and to make it even more convincing the clone would die almost immediately after giving up the "cure". And that would make it the second time that Sloane faked his own death (that we know of).

Fourth: Julian injects what he thinks is a simple cure of the disease in Odo. Odo under control feel compelled to link with the female founder and pass on the "cure" to her. She immediately changes her mind and orders her armies to stand down. (which would be strange otherwise since Odo was never able to convince the founders of anything before).

Fifth: Odo rejoins his people and gets away from Kira. This is to prevent Kira from noticing subtle changes in his behavior and also Julian from examining Odo's body and seeing that the virus is still there only in a modified form.

Sixth: The founders are now puppets of 31 and in that capacity, they will help 31 to maintain the peace by spying on all the people in and out of the federation and reporting to 31.