If you could do things differently.....
- Thread starter Crazyewok
- Start date
Your (OP) presumption that Berman was inept is empirically false, and the assertion that he had contempt for his audience is not substantiated. 
1) less use of stock footage in battles.
Would be awesome.
2) sovereign class ships and intrepids in battles! We are not THAT stupid....
No, I'd have rather seen less starships overall in those battles. We didn't need a Sovereign, what we needed was less Star Wars and more strategic battle depiction with smaller numbers of ships that mattered to the audience.
3) DS9 should of started with a Miranda class in series 1 and got replaced by the defiant.
I did not mind the runabouts, and a starship on day 1 might not have been diplomatically wise at that point. And DS9 was plenty well-defended.
4)more serialization ! That's what DS9 did best!
TNG reskins were not their best episodes. I agree serialization was their strength.
5) more Garak! we got plenty of him as it was
6) A separate dedicated crew for the defiant. which characters screen time would you cut to have a whole new dedicated crew? Didn't you want more Garak?
7)A admiral eventually stationed on DS9
to serve what purpose? wouldn't that neuter Sisko?
8) Exploration of the Tzenkathi.
exploration is good
9) Vist from the enterprise E
yeah that would have been cool
10) A tie in with first contact.
missed opportunity, I agree
11) more exploration of the races that make up the dominion.
yes
12) see a fleshed out ground battle, actually seeing the mentioned hoppers and heavy artillery.
there was a fair amount of ground action as I recall. Would also like to have seen more equipment.
13) No profit and lace, move along home, muse ect
sure, but its nigh impossible to do good Trek without taking the risks to fall flat
14) A official cannon tie in companion book with starmaps and ship lists.
absolutely!
1) less use of stock footage in battles.
Would be awesome.
2) sovereign class ships and intrepids in battles! We are not THAT stupid....
No, I'd have rather seen less starships overall in those battles. We didn't need a Sovereign, what we needed was less Star Wars and more strategic battle depiction with smaller numbers of ships that mattered to the audience.
3) DS9 should of started with a Miranda class in series 1 and got replaced by the defiant.
I did not mind the runabouts, and a starship on day 1 might not have been diplomatically wise at that point. And DS9 was plenty well-defended.
4)more serialization ! That's what DS9 did best!
TNG reskins were not their best episodes. I agree serialization was their strength.
5) more Garak! we got plenty of him as it was
6) A separate dedicated crew for the defiant. which characters screen time would you cut to have a whole new dedicated crew? Didn't you want more Garak?
7)A admiral eventually stationed on DS9
to serve what purpose? wouldn't that neuter Sisko?
8) Exploration of the Tzenkathi.
exploration is good
9) Vist from the enterprise E
yeah that would have been cool
10) A tie in with first contact.
missed opportunity, I agree
11) more exploration of the races that make up the dominion.
yes
12) see a fleshed out ground battle, actually seeing the mentioned hoppers and heavy artillery.
there was a fair amount of ground action as I recall. Would also like to have seen more equipment.
13) No profit and lace, move along home, muse ect
sure, but its nigh impossible to do good Trek without taking the risks to fall flat
14) A official cannon tie in companion book with starmaps and ship lists.
absolutely!
1. No Q--as much fun as it was to watch Sisko put him in his place, the guest appearance wasn't needed.
2. Do more with Jake. His friendship with Nog was great, it showed what humanity was all about in the 24th century, but as he got older he was just forgotten about. Even as a reporter there was scope to do more with him.
3. Have the Defiant's replacement be another class of ship, Sabre-Class perhaps.
4. Tone down the number of Klingon episodes. It was one thing that bothered me when they introduced Worf, though we did get Martok and he was awesome.
5. No Worf/Jadzia marriage. Would've been nice to see her and Julian have a little happiness.
6. Explore the civilian element a little more--I'd love to have seen what Kasidy got up to on her cargo runs (when not delivering supplies to the Maquis) and how she dealt with scrapes without the might of Starfleet.
7. More Opaka. I loved her and wish she'd popped up a few more times, even just in Sisko's head as his Obi-Wan.
8. Make T'Rul a recurring character.
9. Season 8 and 9 dealing with the fallout of the war and rebuilding.
2. Do more with Jake. His friendship with Nog was great, it showed what humanity was all about in the 24th century, but as he got older he was just forgotten about. Even as a reporter there was scope to do more with him.
3. Have the Defiant's replacement be another class of ship, Sabre-Class perhaps.
4. Tone down the number of Klingon episodes. It was one thing that bothered me when they introduced Worf, though we did get Martok and he was awesome.
5. No Worf/Jadzia marriage. Would've been nice to see her and Julian have a little happiness.
6. Explore the civilian element a little more--I'd love to have seen what Kasidy got up to on her cargo runs (when not delivering supplies to the Maquis) and how she dealt with scrapes without the might of Starfleet.
7. More Opaka. I loved her and wish she'd popped up a few more times, even just in Sisko's head as his Obi-Wan.
8. Make T'Rul a recurring character.
9. Season 8 and 9 dealing with the fallout of the war and rebuilding.
There aren't a whole lot of things I would change. Maybe a few.
1) Go with writers original idea to have the Dominion be like a totalitarian Federation. Many different races, not just three.
2) Everything involving other members of Worf's family. Not sure how I'd do it differently, but anything would be better than what they did with Kurn and Alexander.
3) Make Zek less like a cartoon and more like a brilliant ruthless capitalist.
Those are the only big things I can think of off the top of my head.
1) Go with writers original idea to have the Dominion be like a totalitarian Federation. Many different races, not just three.
2) Everything involving other members of Worf's family. Not sure how I'd do it differently, but anything would be better than what they did with Kurn and Alexander.
3) Make Zek less like a cartoon and more like a brilliant ruthless capitalist.
Those are the only big things I can think of off the top of my head.
Berman created the largest body of Trek of all the producers, yes there were a few stinkers in the mix, but majority of great Trek was made under his watch.
And by "meddling" you mean doing his job?
Would have enjoyed exploring some of the gamma quads other species outside of the Dominion too.
One scene toward the end of the movie, and debateably it should have been included. The big problem with that scene is Quark suddenly appears from really nowhere with no introduction, and the general audience wouldn't have known who he was.
The impression I got was that the Defiant had a dedicated crew, and the only people transferring from the station was the command staff.
Couldn't someone have taken a minute out of that episode and pointed out to her that it was her decision to take a assignment in a high gravity environment, no one dragged her there, and no her current situation wasn't some kind of metaphor for being disabled. Don't like the gravity, go home.
Good idea, it served no real purpose.
Disagree, seeing and examining the Bajor religion was one of the high points of the series.
That was TNG, why would DS9 explain it?
Something I would have changed would be to shorten (severly shorten) the Dominion War. End it somewhere in the beginning - middle of the sixth season. Allow the DS9 series then to move on to other stories/subjects completely separate from the War arc.
Disregarding Terry Farrell contract end date, if Ezri is going to replace Jadzia, have it happen a year sooner. And have Ezri be a male, to mix up the relationship dynamic.
Give the second Defiant a different name.
You raised the issue of Rick Berman's involvement in the series as your first issue. Should it not be relevant?
Berman seldom imposed his will on the series. More often than not, he was there to deny the producers things they wanted than demand that they do things. Some of these things were because he felt the studio would not allow it. Others were because Berman felt he had to be the living representative of "Roddenberry's worldview." More often than not, Berman reacted to stories on their detail rather than whole episodes or narratives. Nonetheless, these are the four most f'ed up things that can be put on Berman:
1. Berman gamed contract negotiations with Terry Farrell in the sixth season. This led to her leaving the series.
2. He demanded that story arcs wrap up more quickly. This had the unintended consequence that the Dominion War was stretched out much longer than producers originally intended.
3. He did not appear to defend Homefront/Paradise Lost at the third-to-fourth season cliffhanger. If there was one time that Berman should have stood up to the studio, it was on this issue.
4. He insisted on the shaven, hairy head look of Sisko into season three.
Yes, but it still doesn't make sense. Being CO is a full time job. That's how he or she knows who among the crew to train, promote, discipline, or reassign. The Defiant has a small crew, so her CO should be a lower-ranking officer, Lt. Cdr. or Cdr. When Sisko goes aboard, he should tell the CO what he wants the Defiant to be doing, but not how to do it. He's a passenger who can direct the operations of the ship and give orders to the CO, but is not the CO himself.
Or give her an assignment where a low-gravity environment is an advantage! There must be a lot of low-gravity inhabitable planets.
People seem to be forgetting about Worf. He was often seen as CO of the Defiant, especially after he moved his quarters onto the ship.
Despite the things I criticise about DS9's seventh season, I still love this show to bits.
No, just no.......
To shorten the war would to have cheapend it.
It was meant to be a REAL threat to the federation and alpha/beta quadrant powers, not a border skirmish or minor disagreement.
All out war is meant to be long and bloody!
If you want exploration and peace you have TNG. DS9 is about conflict.
If anything the dominion war should of lasted longer.
He didn't act like a CO. He didn't know the names of the engineering crew in Starship Down. Sisko didn't ask Worf to use the Defiant to do particular tasks and then allow Worf to assign and order the crew as needed, Sisko just ordered any of the crew.
One way of having it both ways would have been to of had individual seasons depict multiple years in time. Instead of each season represent a single year.
My thought was to give the series the ability to move beyond the Dominion War prior to the series conclusion. Explore other ideas. The time period between the war's end and the series end was so very brief.
Worf's estrange comforts of ridiculousness was Star Trek's version of fine wine; he was promoted simply because he was an alumni of TNG. Kira was a far superior CO for crew morale and strategic intelligence; I'd rather her as first officer of the Defiant.
1) I can agree with this, although mainly for What You Leave Behind. I'd prefer no stock footage and just more scenes of characters interacting to be honest.
2) I would choose seeing an Ambassador, Constellation, Constitution or more of those kitbashes to be honest. Or a different Romulan warbird/Cardassian warship or see more Negh'vars in battle.
3) I did think Defiant was going to be a big ship like a Galaxy class when I first heard about it. I prefer the Defiant-class now.
4) I'd prefer less serialisation in the later seasons to be honest. Or I just prefer watching those seasons less.
5) I think we got the right amount of Garak. Too much and you blunt what makes him interesting.
6) This would never fly, both because of cost and because people want to see the heroes doing stuff.
7)Well we kind of got this anyway in Admiral Ross. The producers wanted Sisko to be promoted to Admiral, so you almost got that wish.
8) Well Robert Hewitt Wolfe imagined them as armoured lizard people, so that was probably never going to happen, but I think having one of them in an episode would have been cool.
9) If the TNG cast had cameoed in the background of Worf's wedding like Ron Moore wanted, that would have amazing.
10) Then we have to get into debates about why Sisko didn't command the Defiant which might retread the same story arc Picard was going through in First Contact. My imagination can fill in the gaps.
11) I can agree with this somewhat. I wondered about a storyline where an AQ ship is stuck in the Gamma Quadrant during the Dominion War and makes allies with Gamma locals and other Alpha individuals stuck there. I think they should have brought back the Hunters at least.
12) Star Trek and space shows of the 90s sucked at ground battles. If you're not going to do it well, don't do it at all.
13) I can agree with this somewhat, although I always prefer just having better drafts of shows than throwing everything out.
14) This doesn't bother me.
15) What do you replace it with? What does his arc become? I like that he is still so pathetic that his only way to find meaning is to become the darker counterpart to Sisko and if you look at my fanart I would have made those comparisons more apparent.
16) No.
17) Bring in more Alpha Quadrant races or mention them fighting. This is also budget or making sure the ideas work, but let's say a Federation fleet is fighting in some sector, they're outnumbered and surrounded and we hear "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!" as a fleet of Tamarian, Ferengi and other ships come charging in to the rescue.
18) Dominion War ends three-quarters way through Season 7 allowing storylines to wrap up better and talk about what happens next. At the very least, set a date for Bajor joing the Federation and contemplate what that means for national identity and if they still want it. I don't think ending the Dominion War and completing Sisko's and Dukat's arcs needed to happen in the same episode. What about Cardassian reconstruction? Jem Hadar prisoners? What happens to the Breen?
19) No "second Defiant" they just call it Sao Paulo.
20) Different death for Jadzia and more follow-up on that from Worf.
2) I would choose seeing an Ambassador, Constellation, Constitution or more of those kitbashes to be honest. Or a different Romulan warbird/Cardassian warship or see more Negh'vars in battle.
3) I did think Defiant was going to be a big ship like a Galaxy class when I first heard about it. I prefer the Defiant-class now.
4) I'd prefer less serialisation in the later seasons to be honest. Or I just prefer watching those seasons less.
5) I think we got the right amount of Garak. Too much and you blunt what makes him interesting.
6) This would never fly, both because of cost and because people want to see the heroes doing stuff.
7)Well we kind of got this anyway in Admiral Ross. The producers wanted Sisko to be promoted to Admiral, so you almost got that wish.
8) Well Robert Hewitt Wolfe imagined them as armoured lizard people, so that was probably never going to happen, but I think having one of them in an episode would have been cool.
9) If the TNG cast had cameoed in the background of Worf's wedding like Ron Moore wanted, that would have amazing.
10) Then we have to get into debates about why Sisko didn't command the Defiant which might retread the same story arc Picard was going through in First Contact. My imagination can fill in the gaps.
11) I can agree with this somewhat. I wondered about a storyline where an AQ ship is stuck in the Gamma Quadrant during the Dominion War and makes allies with Gamma locals and other Alpha individuals stuck there. I think they should have brought back the Hunters at least.
12) Star Trek and space shows of the 90s sucked at ground battles. If you're not going to do it well, don't do it at all.
13) I can agree with this somewhat, although I always prefer just having better drafts of shows than throwing everything out.
14) This doesn't bother me.
15) What do you replace it with? What does his arc become? I like that he is still so pathetic that his only way to find meaning is to become the darker counterpart to Sisko and if you look at my fanart I would have made those comparisons more apparent.
16) No.
17) Bring in more Alpha Quadrant races or mention them fighting. This is also budget or making sure the ideas work, but let's say a Federation fleet is fighting in some sector, they're outnumbered and surrounded and we hear "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!" as a fleet of Tamarian, Ferengi and other ships come charging in to the rescue.
18) Dominion War ends three-quarters way through Season 7 allowing storylines to wrap up better and talk about what happens next. At the very least, set a date for Bajor joing the Federation and contemplate what that means for national identity and if they still want it. I don't think ending the Dominion War and completing Sisko's and Dukat's arcs needed to happen in the same episode. What about Cardassian reconstruction? Jem Hadar prisoners? What happens to the Breen?
19) No "second Defiant" they just call it Sao Paulo.
20) Different death for Jadzia and more follow-up on that from Worf.
There's lots of individual episodes I would just not do in hindsight, but in terms of big structural changes:
- Only use the cast that are needed for the story of the week. I mean, DS9 did manage to integrate everyone into the plot pretty inoffensively, but really there's no reason to check in with Sisko for three minutes in his office if it's a Ferengi comedy episode or something. This is the main reason why Garak is remembered so fondly - Robinson refused to be added to the main cast, meaning they only used him when they had a need for him.
- Avoid the whole pointless one-season semi-war with the Klingons. Some good stories came out of it (notably the brief transition of Dukat from black to dark grey) but it really was not needed to integrate Worf into the show, and it took momentum away from the conflict with the Dominion.
- No Pah-Wraiths. Everything they did with them - bar maybe Dukat in Covenant - was pretty fucking awful, and it nearly ruined the final arc.
- No Section 31. Mostly because it's been so heavily abused by later Trek.
- Develop a few more races within the Dominion besides the Founders/Vorta/Jem'hadar.
- Establishment of a Romulan recurring character (maybe T'Rul) who is on the station in the later seasons. She could have been upgraded to main cast in the final season after Terry Farrell quits, meaning they wouldn't feel the need to introduce Ezri.
- Finish up the Dominion War a bit earlier in the last season. I'd then have a final two-parter - possibly involving time jumps - which would basically finish the story, with the admission of Bejor to the Federation and Sisko's ultimate destiny more thoroughly examined.
- A better final arc for Dukat. He doesn't need to be redeemed, although I think in a way his ending up with Damar's arc would have been interesting. But his real nemesis in the series was not Sisko, it was Kira. Ultimately Kira should have been the one to confront and defeat him.
As would I, Kira is a far superior character, but her role on the station was clearly defined and understood. Exactly what a "strategic operations officer" is was never really spelled out, only little hints now and then, though he was seen commanding the Defiant on several occasions when Sisko and Kira weren't onboard--why they didn't have him do the same prior to Operation Return is kinda baffling, especially as it meant yet more Klingon stories (even with the wonderful Martok in the picture).
Yes, and I'm sure Starfleet would prefer a Starfleet officer commanding one of their starships. Petty, maybe, but the Defiant is a 100% Federation funded and Starfleet owned ship. There should be no doubt about the authority of its commander to use force on behalf of the Federation.
DS9 (the station) was property of the Bajoran people after the occupation, so even after they invited Starfleet to run it, it still makes sense to liase one of their own officers as one high up in the local command hierarchy, hence Kira. The Defiant, however, was starfleet property, assigned to this posting. I'm not sure Starfleet would have been comfortable with a non-Starfleeter in command of a Starfleet vessel. I agree with you however, that considering their characters, Kira would have been a much better fit to command the Defiant than Worf.
Curious as to the story behind this one... why would the Dominion war last longer if he demanded story arcs wrap up more quickly?
Also curious as to what you mean here.... you mean those two eps should have been that S3/S4 cliffhanger?
The basic idea is that by not granting enough time dedicated exclusively to the Dominion War, the story was drawn out over a longer period of time.
There are two aspects of this. First, Berman pushing for the Klingon Cold War pushed the start of the Dominion War back a season. Originally, Behr et al imagined that the whole affair with the Dominion would start with and wrap up in season 5. I don't believe that they necessarily knew it was going to be a war or not, but because Berman wanted them to concentrate on the more familiar enemy, less progress was made on the Dominion narrative.
Second, Berman limited the amount of time that could be dedicated to the Dominion War. The arc that started the sixth season was supposed to end with the end of the war. Behr et al believed that they needed ten to twelve episodes. Berman granted them four. The writers decided to scale back there ambitions: instead of covering the whole war, they'd only retake the station.(Even with reduced ambitions, they took two additional episodes.) For the rest of season six, they had to do more stand-alone episodes. To compensate, the writers added bits of dialogue to scripts about the war, advancing the story incrementally. For the seventh season, Behr decided to give the first half of the season to stand-alones so that they could get the time they wanted at the end to address the war in one arc.
The war wasn't supposed to be THE THING that defined DS9. It was supposed to happen over season 5. Because Berman resisted serialization, it didn't get started until season 6 and didn't end until season 7.
