If Star Trek Into Darkness was based on the loss of Vulcan...

[Nerys Myk]

It's tempting to just say, "why can't they all be like the Spock we love", but that's a non-starter.

But take Saavik. Not arrogant. If anything, she's compassionate. Then there is Tuvok and Sybok, neither of which demonstrate superiority complexes when addressing humans. If anything Sybok treats Kirk with respect.

Somewhere along the line that all got lost and the writers decided to make Vulcans believe themselves better than humans.... and that's more to the point... we don't see this snobbery directed at other races... just humans. Hmmmmmmmm

Saavik tends to blend into the woodwork for me. Ally gave her some oomph. A willingness to talk back to Kirk and question him. But Curtis was the first of the cookie cutter Vulcans.

Tuvok came pretty late in the game. And he was the first Vulcan regular since Spock. He does seem to get really irritated by Neelix.

Sybok is an atypical Vulcan. He is a bit arrogant with his give me your pain routine and search for God obsessions.

 

[austen_pierce]

It's tempting to just say, "why can't they all be like the Spock we love", but that's a non-starter.

But take Saavik. Not arrogant. If anything, she's compassionate. Then there is Tuvok and Sybok, neither of which demonstrate superiority complexes when addressing humans. If anything Sybok treats Kirk with respect.

Somewhere along the line that all got lost and the writers decided to make Vulcans believe themselves better than humans.... and that's more to the point... we don't see this snobbery directed at other races... just humans. Hmmmmmmmm

Saavik tends to blend into the woodwork for me. Ally gave her some oomph. A willingness to talk back to Kirk and question him. But Curtis was the first of the cookie cutter Vulcans.

Tuvok came pretty late in the game. And he was the first Vulcan regular since Spock. He does seem to get really irritated by Neelix.

Sybok is an atypical Vulcan. He is a bit arrogant with his give me your pain routine and search for God obsessions.

I felt Sybok to be more ignorant than arrogant, thinking he'd found God and assuming Kirk would agree with him.

 

[borgboy]

ENT's Vulcans were snobby and worse towards Andorians.

I'm a bit fuzzy on Saavik's age and the timeline. Would she be born yet? I wouldn't think she'd have been brought to Vulcan yet anyways.

 

[Nerys Myk]

ENT's Vulcans were snobby and worse towards Andorians.

I'm a bit fuzzy on Saavik's age and the timeline. Would she be born yet? I wouldn't think she'd have been brought to Vulcan yet anyways.

Assuming she's roughly Kristie Ally's age, she would have been around 30 in TWOK. Though Memory Beta has her being born in 2264, which would make her 21 at the time of TWOK. MB says she was brought to Vulcan at age 11.

 

[T'Girl]

I felt Sybok to be more ignorant than arrogant ...

The whole "I can mind rape anyone I want" attitude does seem extremely arrogant.

 

[austen_pierce]

I felt Sybok to be more ignorant than arrogant ...

The whole "I can mind rape anyone I want" attitude does seem extremely arrogant.

I disagree with the term mind rape' and reserve that for the Viceroy-Troi scene from Nemesis.

I got the impression tat Sybok always obtained permission, perhaps not always explicitly, to show people their bottled up pain. Kirk's refusal and Sybok's acceptance of that refusal, IMO is evidence that Sybok does not force himself upon the vehemently unwilling.

The only time I feel Sybok uses his ability as a weapon is at the very end when he confronts the God-creature. His line "Let me show you your pain." or something to that effect is part of what made Sybok a likeable character (and made the movie worth watching).

 

[dswynne1]

It would have been neater if "John Harrison" was really a disguised Sybok, and that he originally signed up with Marcus and Section 31 in order to protect other Federation worlds, only to find out that Marcus was using him to start a war with the Klingons. The revenge part would come when Sybok/John Harrison decides that Section 31 is a threat. You wouldn't need to have the Khan thing, though I would have an ending credit scene where a Marla McGivers, a "historian" for Section 31 reveals a "Plan B" to her colleagues and superior, which ends with the camera pan to a cryo-tube with a name stenciled on it: Singh, Noonien. This scene would set up for a future film featuring Khan...

 

[T'Girl]

I disagree with the term mind rape

I believe it the term to be accurate, remember Sybok isn't simply removing or suppressing people's "pain," he is taking control of them.

Sulu: "Thanks for removing my pain, now get your Vulcan ass in the brig."

After Sybok is (apparently) killed, the people he was controlling resume being their former selves.

 

[austen_pierce]

I disagree with the term mind rape

I believe it the term to be accurate, remember Sybok isn't simply removing or suppressing people's "pain," he is taking control of them.

Sulu: "Thanks for removing my pain, now get your Vulcan ass in the brig."

After Sybok is (apparently) killed, the people he was controlling resume being their former selves.

I've often wondered about that... when exactly do those he controlled return to their natural selves?

For Spock, the attempt fails completely.

For McCoy, the attempt lasts only a few minutes, until Spock refuses to go with Sybok.

For the others, it feels like Sybok releases them just as he releases Kirk from imprisonment upon arrival at Eden-Shakari. I never got the impression that Sybok's followers were controlled until his death. We don't see any sort of 'release' scene when Sybok dies.

 

[Malaika]

I would have preferred it. Actually, I was hoping they wouldn't gloss over what happened to vulcan.. and instead we only get a tiny mention by Spock.

 

[fireproof78]

I disagree with the term mind rape

I believe it the term to be accurate, remember Sybok isn't simply removing or suppressing people's "pain," he is taking control of them.

Sulu: "Thanks for removing my pain, now get your Vulcan ass in the brig."

After Sybok is (apparently) killed, the people he was controlling resume being their former selves.

I've often wondered about that... when exactly do those he controlled return to their natural selves?

For Spock, the attempt fails completely.

For McCoy, the attempt lasts only a few minutes, until Spock refuses to go with Sybok.

For the others, it feels like Sybok releases them just as he releases Kirk from imprisonment upon arrival at Eden-Shakari. I never got the impression that Sybok's followers were controlled until his death. We don't see any sort of 'release' scene when Sybok dies.

Well, here's a thought that I just had. Spock was not affected by Sybok in a manipulative, brain-washing way, because he had a reconciliation with Sarek in "Journey to Babel" and "Voyage Home." The pain was still there, but not something that Spock allowed to affect him.

Another thought that I had was the concept of the Romulans as being lost Vulcans. That was an aspect not revealed until "Balance of Terror" but now that information is known earlier. Would reunification start sooner because of Vulcan's loss?

 

[austen_pierce]

I believe it the term to be accurate, remember Sybok isn't simply removing or suppressing people's "pain," he is taking control of them.

Sulu: "Thanks for removing my pain, now get your Vulcan ass in the brig."

After Sybok is (apparently) killed, the people he was controlling resume being their former selves.

I've often wondered about that... when exactly do those he controlled return to their natural selves?

For Spock, the attempt fails completely.

For McCoy, the attempt lasts only a few minutes, until Spock refuses to go with Sybok.

For the others, it feels like Sybok releases them just as he releases Kirk from imprisonment upon arrival at Eden-Shakari. I never got the impression that Sybok's followers were controlled until his death. We don't see any sort of 'release' scene when Sybok dies.

Well, here's a thought that I just had. Spock was not affected by Sybok in a manipulative, brain-washing way, because he had a reconciliation with Sarek in "Journey to Babel" and "Voyage Home." The pain was still there, but not something that Spock allowed to affect him.

Another thought that I had was the concept of the Romulans as being lost Vulcans. That was an aspect not revealed until "Balance of Terror" but now that information is known earlier. Would reunification start sooner because of Vulcan's loss?

He (Spock Prime) would find Romulus more warlike and hostile than in later years. Maybe? Also, Spock Prime has his hands full on New Vulcan. But there's no reason reunification HAS to be pioneered by Spock Prime.

Back to Sybok's control for a sec, there's a bit more onscreen evidence that implies the release of control upon planetary arrival. Sybok gives the ship to Kirk.
-Kirk asks something like "Just like that? How do you know I won't turn us around?"
-Sybok answers to the effect "Because you too must know..." (sorry, I know I'm butchering these lines)

Sybok does NOT say "Because your crew are still under my control, and they won't let you turn the ship around."

That and the fact that at least Chekov seems perfectly normal a few scenes later when Kirk asks to fire torpedoes and Chekov hesitates. Chekov's loyalty to Kirk is back, otherwise he would have just fired the torpedo without question.