If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Recast

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Changing Spock's name to Data isn't new and different, and changing Data's name to Odo is even less new and different.

They were all outsider characters but still quite distinct. No-one would ever confuse the half-breed with the robot with the shapeshifter.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Yeah, basically.

Although... I suppose there's something to be said for the fact that all three of them are top ten Trek characters of mine...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Changing Spock's name to Data isn't new and different, and changing Data's name to Odo is even less new and different.

They were all outsider characters but still quite distinct. No-one would ever confuse the half-breed with the robot with the shapeshifter.

As the outsider they play the same role in their group's dynamic. That's why they're the same character. Worf is also an outsider. Seven is an outsider. Making them an android, a shapshifter, an full alien or a cyborg doesn't change that they're a take on Spock.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

There's nothing that can't be achieved through good writing. The degree to which Hollywood leans on brand recognition above all else is just plain laziness.

At least Hollywood makes things that people want to see and that entertain them; Hollywood could be Canada, which can't get anybody to see Canadian movies at any appreciable level that doesn't require government funding at the provincial and federal levels (it took a British film director and an American movie company to come to Toronto to make a movie about a Canadian comic book character because nobody here even tried to do it.) All that we can make is kitchen sink movies that are imitations of British ones. Popular comedies? Not a chance. Science fiction? Ha. Romantic comedies? Forget about it. Action films? Wishing for the impossible. We're too busy making things like The Sweet Hereafter or Who Has Seen the Wind (which isn't bad in and of itself, but not the thing that one wants to do to create a functioning industry.)

As for remakes and revivals, that's a part of art-as has been said may times (and something you should know by now), there is nothing new under the sun-there are only a few basic stories told in different ways no matter what the chi-chi film critics tell you and what the writers of most independent movies tell you when they diss American movies from the major studios in Los Angeles. Somebody liked Star Trek and wanted to do a new movie with it, they did so. Who are you or I to object to that? It would be like objecting to somebody filming a new movie adaptation of an old novel or play. And as said to somebody else, you don't have to see the Star Trek movies at all.

If the right medium could be found, it's time for Trek to move the PrimeVerse forward on the small screen too. And it would be successful if they did it right. It's a risk, but Trek has rolled the dice many times throughout the last 50 years and won.

I'm sorry, but as others have said, the 'PrimeVerse' is dead;it died with Enterprise. Brining it back won't work, especially with a population of people used to the 2009 and 2013 movies. If there was something in the PrimeVerse to bring back, CBS would have done so already, but it hasn't (most likely due to budgetary and ratings concerns.) It's best to stick with Star Trek as it is on the big screen for now.

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Don't feel bad, after all you have.... erm...Degrassi?

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Changing Spock's name to Data isn't new and different, and changing Data's name to Odo is even less new and different.

They were all outsider characters but still quite distinct. No-one would ever confuse the half-breed with the robot with the shapeshifter.

As the outsider they play the same role in their group's dynamic. That's why they're the same character. Worf is also an outsider. Seven is an outsider. Making them an android, a shapshifter, an full alien or a cyborg doesn't change that they're a take on Spock.

Are you really saying that Data and Worf are essentially the same character? They're obviously not. And they're not rip-offs of Spock any more than Picard is a rip-off of Kirk, or Crusher is a rip-off of McCoy. Outsider characters are just interesting, arguably more interesting than team players.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

They were all outsider characters but still quite distinct. No-one would ever confuse the half-breed with the robot with the shapeshifter.

As the outsider they play the same role in their group's dynamic. That's why they're the same character. Worf is also an outsider. Seven is an outsider. Making them an android, a shapshifter, an full alien or a cyborg doesn't change that they're a take on Spock.

Are you really saying that Data and Worf are essentially the same character? They're obviously not. And they're not rip-offs of Spock any more than Picard is a rip-off of Kirk, or Crusher is a rip-off of McCoy. Outsider characters are just interesting, arguably more interesting than team players.

They're variations on the Spock character. An outsider who can make comments on humans/humanity.

Crusher isn't McCoy because she plays a different role in the group dynamic. She not the gruff older person who speaks their mind. OTOH, Pulaski is, just for that reason. Guinan is actually closer to McCoy's role than Crusher was.

Picard is Kirk. He's the early season one Kirk mixed with the Kirk from TMP. A serious, experienced, intellectual officer.

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I never said ripoff, just that they have a certain role. I don't think anyone said 'rip offs.'

I'd also say Kato fulfils the same role as Tonto, but they're not the same character or rip offs of each other. They don't even tend to be the same character from version to version. It's just that in their respective narratives they fill a similar niche...incidentally the same one as Spock (especially in early season 1.)

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I never said ripoff, just that they have a certain role. I don't think anyone said 'rip offs.'

Not you, but Nerys Myk has said "they're the same character" (exact quote).

 

[M-Red]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I'm sorry, but as others have said, the 'PrimeVerse' is dead;it died with Enterprise. Brining it back won't work, especially with a population of people used to the 2009 and 2013 movies. If there was something in the PrimeVerse to bring back, CBS would have done so already, but it hasn't (most likely due to budgetary and ratings concerns.) It's best to stick with Star Trek as it is on the big screen for now.

Again, I'm wholly conceding that the film franchise should be featuring the Kirk/Sock/TOS dynamic even if that means recasting.


But for television....


People only think it died with Enterprise because Enterprise sucked so badly.


A prequel television series to STAR TREK is seriously one of the absolute worst ideas that could possibly be conceived. But....they did it! And then they acted like it wasn't truly Trek by not embracing the name. The general reaction was, "Well, if you don't think you're STAR TREK, neither do I. Fuck off." And then it also sucked. And that series died a pathetic death.



Enterprise was a failure because it fucking sucked from start to finish. From the timing, to the concept, to the major conceptual decisions, it got cancelled and cut short because it fucking sucked.


Not because it was STAR TREK. It was Enterprise ---not STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE --- and it sucked. The people who say otherwise were loyal diehards and no one cares what they think.



And it's been 10 years since that turd was cancelled for being such a turd.


People will be ready for some STAR TREK that's actually ready to live up to the name. If it's done right. Certainly, ENT is the template of what not to do. In every single way.

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

A reasonable argument, reasonably put.

But...

I like Enterprise!

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Trek on TV was already dying. Enterprise was just a failed attempt at CPR that accidentally snapped a rib and drove it straight through the franchise's lung.

Somone had a graph that displayed it better, but there was a period for about a decade (even before TNG ended) where TV Trek was just steadily losing viewers. Throw in TOS being low rated when it was actually airing, and it's hard to blame CBS for doubting that they'd get a big enough return to justify their investment. As opposed to what they're doing right now, where they can make a profit whilst doing absolutely nothing.

Plus, pretend for a second that we're not talking about Star Trek for a moment. If this was any other series, would you really expect it to pick right up where it left off, over a decade after it was axed? With all the series that have tried that approach in the history of television, can you name a dozen that have managed to be successful enough to make it past three seasons? I can name maybe four.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Enterprise was a failure because it fucking sucked from start to finish. From the timing, to the concept, to the major conceptual decisions, it got cancelled and cut short because it fucking sucked.

While it hasn't been watched nearly as often, Enterprise has the same 3.9 to 4.0 star rating as every other Trek series on Netflix.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I never said ripoff, just that they have a certain role. I don't think anyone said 'rip offs.'

Not you, but Nerys Myk has said "they're the same character" (exact quote).

No, the exact quote is:

As the outsider they play the same role in their group's dynamic. That's why they're the same character.

They're variations on the Spock character. An outsider who can make comments on humans/humanity.

Crusher isn't McCoy because she plays a different role in the group dynamic. She not the gruff older person who speaks their mind. OTOH, Pulaski is, just for that reason. Guinan is actually closer to McCoy's role than Crusher was.

Picard is Kirk. He's the early season one Kirk mixed with the Kirk from TMP. A serious, experienced, intellectual officer.

THey aren't Spock (half Vulcan who suppresses emotion and used logic) but are an outsider that can make comments on humanity. That's the role/character they play.

 

[martok2112]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Enterprise:

Well, the operation was a success, but the patient died.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Enterprise was a failure because it fucking sucked from start to finish. From the timing, to the concept, to the major conceptual decisions, it got cancelled and cut short because it fucking sucked.

I'm no fan of ENT, but that's not in the least bit true. ENT was UPN's highest rated show. It was cancelled not because it "fucking sucked," but because it was financially unfeasible to produce a show that expensive for the returns it was getting. If ENT had been just another of those cheaply-produced shows like reality TV, then it would have continued for another three years.

Like many people here who hate the Abrams films, you're confusing your own personal opinions for the reality.

Certainly, ENT is the template of what not to do. In every single way.

In this I'd agree.

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I never said ripoff, just that they have a certain role. I don't think anyone said 'rip offs.'

Not you, but Nerys Myk has said "they're the same character" (exact quote).

No, the exact quote is:

As the outsider they play the same role in their group's dynamic. That's why they're the same character.

They're variations on the Spock character. An outsider who can make comments on humans/humanity.

Crusher isn't McCoy because she plays a different role in the group dynamic. She not the gruff older person who speaks their mind. OTOH, Pulaski is, just for that reason. Guinan is actually closer to McCoy's role than Crusher was.

Picard is Kirk. He's the early season one Kirk mixed with the Kirk from TMP. A serious, experienced, intellectual officer.

THey aren't Spock (half Vulcan who suppresses emotion and used logic) but are an outsider that can make comments on humanity. That's the role/character they play.

In TNG Season One, I kind-of thought they split a lot of Kirk's traits between Riker and Picard. Picard even had a bit of the original Captain Pike, with his backstory and grouchiness.

That probably explains why I kept feeling the urge to smack Rikers smug, clean-shaven face — he got Kirk's occasional 60's smarmy asshat-ishness.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Yep. Riker is Kirk as the young, cocky ladies man and action hero.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Yep. Riker is Kirk as the young, cocky ladies man and action hero.

A shame Frakes didn't have the acting chops to pull it off.

 

[Long Syntax]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Enterprise was a failure because it fucking sucked from start to finish. From the timing, to the concept, to the major conceptual decisions, it got cancelled and cut short because it fucking sucked.


Not because it was STAR TREK. It was Enterprise ---not STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE --- and it sucked. The people who say otherwise were loyal diehards and no one cares what they think.

And it's been 10 years since that turd was cancelled for being such a turd.


People will be ready for some STAR TREK that's actually ready to live up to the name. If it's done right. Certainly, ENT is the template of what not to do. In every single way.

I'd like to point out that TOS had a short run as well. Thankfully such an ignorant rant didn't keep TNG from being made.