I happened to watch Caretaker two nights ago, and Tuvok said it would take "several hours" to activate the program to get them back to Federation space.
If Ransom had been Klingon?
- Thread starter Guy Gardener
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I happened to watch Caretaker two nights ago, and Tuvok said it would take "several hours" to activate the program to get them back to Federation space.
I've always equated this with the Germans who smuggled Jews out or hid them during the Nazi era. Technically what they were doing was illegal but morally it was the right thing to do.
"The weak shall die" was the telepathic message Kes was receiving. At this point in time all they knew was that after 8472 was done with the borg they were coming after the rest of them.
Besides that the borg aren't a natural lifeform but rather a conglomeration of kidnapped and brainwashed beings. There's no evolving, there's just assimulation.
While I'm not personally crazy about the idea of handing over technology to a race like the Hirogen I can see a self-defense argument here. Besides, that was the truce Janeway and the Hirogen leader negotiated before he was killed and she kept her word. In any negotiation you're going to have to give a little. I can see Starfleet going over the call with her during debrief but I can also see why it was done.
It was still time they didn't have (the play would've been swarming with Kazon by then), and the Array was never viable to begin with.
Then why did Janeway make a deal with the kazon that they could have the array after they'd used it to go home no fault of foul?
Why did they even go back there?
Why did she ask the caretaker for help, several times, to activate the array and send them all home?
She stayed because she wanted to save the Ocampa.
Not that it seemed like she did anything at all to actually save them other than destroy some space station a days travel away from Ocampa at cruising speed, a planet rich in cormaline deposits the Kazon coveted and held along with a refinery or two and a shop to cater to that entire sectors needs.
The script's logic is awful.
The Caretakers actual fear is that the Kazon will ignore the Ocampa after they steal their water allowing them to die of thirst. So it's wholesale negligence rather than a culling the ocampa were looking forward to if the Kazon were allowed to keep the array which had a button on it some where which turned off the ocampa forcefield which would allow them to pillage all their precious water, but also had the secrets of replicator technology which fed the ocampan reservoirs which would make water suddenly as valueless as Ocampan slaves.
Why did they even go back there?
Why did she ask the caretaker for help, several times, to activate the array and send them all home?
She stayed because she wanted to save the Ocampa.
Not that it seemed like she did anything at all to actually save them other than destroy some space station a days travel away from Ocampa at cruising speed, a planet rich in cormaline deposits the Kazon coveted and held along with a refinery or two and a shop to cater to that entire sectors needs.
The script's logic is awful.
The Caretakers actual fear is that the Kazon will ignore the Ocampa after they steal their water allowing them to die of thirst. So it's wholesale negligence rather than a culling the ocampa were looking forward to if the Kazon were allowed to keep the array which had a button on it some where which turned off the ocampa forcefield which would allow them to pillage all their precious water, but also had the secrets of replicator technology which fed the ocampan reservoirs which would make water suddenly as valueless as Ocampan slaves.
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I think the deal was BS the keep the Kazon away until they figured out a way home, and since the Array wasn't viable the deal went south.
Why go back there? It was a better bet than just flying away, maybe they thought there was another way the Caretaker could send them back.
And seeing how violent the Kazon are, odds are that once they no longer needed the Ocampa for water and had replicator tech they'd have just used it to make weapons, sell the Ocampa off as slaves to other races, and begin conquering the sector.
Why go back there? It was a better bet than just flying away, maybe they thought there was another way the Caretaker could send them back.
And seeing how violent the Kazon are, odds are that once they no longer needed the Ocampa for water and had replicator tech they'd have just used it to make weapons, sell the Ocampa off as slaves to other races, and begin conquering the sector.
The Federation "allows" the Klingon's to rape, pillage and slave.
Absolutely no difference.
Backward ignorant aliens are allowed to be backward and ignorant. Their backward ignorance is cherished. That's the Prime Directive. Changing backward ignorance creates a responsibility of consequences and a duty of care which is possibly never ending... Iraq any one?
It is law abiding for the starfleeters to let aliens handle alien matters in alien space.
The Kazon were the recognized power in that area.
It was their home.
Caretaker was a senile hobo drifter trying to be a god in Kazon space.
No wonder the Kazon had no patience for arrogant condescending blow hard aliens.
The deal fell apart before it had a chance because Janeway backhandedly called their Maje "uncivilized".
It was never said that the Array was not an option. the opposite was said over and over again in fact.
Tuvok was prepared to use the array to go home because he figured out how to use it and he would have until Janeway decided she should shit on the Prime Directive because her heart had not yet shrunk into a nugget of coal.
And then there was B'Elanna, a woman who was to be the chief engineer who was mighty pissed about her magic door home being atomized by a mere starfleet captain...
Hells, 5 years later in Night she was having an emotional breakdown because she finally calculated that it was a mistake to destroy the array and that they should have used it to go home.
Absolutely no difference.
Backward ignorant aliens are allowed to be backward and ignorant. Their backward ignorance is cherished. That's the Prime Directive. Changing backward ignorance creates a responsibility of consequences and a duty of care which is possibly never ending... Iraq any one?
It is law abiding for the starfleeters to let aliens handle alien matters in alien space.
The Kazon were the recognized power in that area.
It was their home.
Caretaker was a senile hobo drifter trying to be a god in Kazon space.
No wonder the Kazon had no patience for arrogant condescending blow hard aliens.
The deal fell apart before it had a chance because Janeway backhandedly called their Maje "uncivilized".
It was never said that the Array was not an option. the opposite was said over and over again in fact.
Tuvok was prepared to use the array to go home because he figured out how to use it and he would have until Janeway decided she should shit on the Prime Directive because her heart had not yet shrunk into a nugget of coal.
And then there was B'Elanna, a woman who was to be the chief engineer who was mighty pissed about her magic door home being atomized by a mere starfleet captain...
Seems to me here, that B'Elanna is really pissed that Janeway is taking the only way home they got off the table, and that interest int he array is not any trick or diversion at all.
Hells, 5 years later in Night she was having an emotional breakdown because she finally calculated that it was a mistake to destroy the array and that they should have used it to go home.
Bazinga!
Hmmm. If Ransom was a Klingon, when he was transferred to the Delta Quadrant the first thing he would have done was attack another ship and transfer his flag until he found a 2nd ship even stronger and attacked it! Eventually he would have a strong enough ship or multiple ones, and return in force to the Array to force the Caretaker to send him back to the Alpha Quadrant. If Janeway had already blown the Array by then, he would have taken over a DQ world and started the New Klingon Order.
;-)
I think you are right, as the show itself suggested, that Ransom's crime was compounded by his being a Starfleet Officer. In Janeway's eyes he broke his oath. Janeway feels very able to judge him, since her crew had been in many similar situations, if not as dire. But the thing that I suspect REALLY frosted her buns, was that Ransom, a Starfleet Officer, turned the aliens they had enraged, upon her own crew. Not just turned them on her crew, but stole Voyager's shield generator that was protecting both ships, possible consigning her people to death. Starfleet colleagues who had rescued his crew from certain death just days before. You mess with her prinicples, and her people, and you face the wrath of Janeway.
;-)
I think you are right, as the show itself suggested, that Ransom's crime was compounded by his being a Starfleet Officer. In Janeway's eyes he broke his oath. Janeway feels very able to judge him, since her crew had been in many similar situations, if not as dire. But the thing that I suspect REALLY frosted her buns, was that Ransom, a Starfleet Officer, turned the aliens they had enraged, upon her own crew. Not just turned them on her crew, but stole Voyager's shield generator that was protecting both ships, possible consigning her people to death. Starfleet colleagues who had rescued his crew from certain death just days before. You mess with her prinicples, and her people, and you face the wrath of Janeway.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude... What's a "writing goof"?
You're talking about conflicting canon?
In the first episode?
There arn't different degrees of canon, but if there were, what happens in the pilot is pretty much gospel compared to later true revelations... I mean I've watched caretaker a few times since but I have not yet found the few frames in there depicting a cloaked Cardassian warship stealing caretaker technology!
Was it a writing goof too when Janeway, in her mission statement at the end announced that looking for the Caretakers mate Susperia was one of their primary goals in their efforts to find a short cut home? Which was obviously because she had translocator technology like the array or the general knowledge to build another, unless Kathy just wanted to play sex and the city with Superia?
Is Kathryn more of a Samantha or a Miranda?
Some people have claimed that Gul Evek was sent home by the Caretaker which is why he was never mentioned again after being taken to the Array with Chakotay in the pilot.
Here's the script I keep drawing from...
http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/101.htm
Please show me where the Caretaker's transporter is declared terminally unusable, because I do believe for a certainty that such an utterance never found air?
You do understand that the usability oft he Caretakers technology is the entire Angel vs bastard motif they were going for here? They could have gone at a cost. The annihilation of the Ocampa, or stayed at the sacrifice of their law, principles and homeland. They stayed on purpose because it was the decent thing to do, apparently.
Good for them!
If there is no choice, then there is no heroicocity.
What was shown in the show though, was that the way the Array transported them also damaged their ship and killed people. It was a convenient way of killing off the Fleeters who would be replaced by Maquis later on.
If they wanted to go for the "Angel vs Bastard" thing then they shouldn't have shown the Array killing people to begin with and killed them off after they arrived, somehow.
If they wanted to go for the "Angel vs Bastard" thing then they shouldn't have shown the Array killing people to begin with and killed them off after they arrived, somehow.
People died because they fell over or consol's blew up.
The crew wasn't readied or steadied and neither was the ship.
People can get turned into jelly meshing into their windscreen if they're clocking over 2hundred mph. Jelly. No shit. No one was turned to jelly. They just fell over because they were surprised or banks of technobabble had an untoward but barely more violent than a hand full of fireworks reaction, which inflicted no proximate damage beyond a few feet.
Stadi is so hot.
What would have made the translocator effect as bad as you're describing is if some by product radiation gimmick broke down organic tissue or created exploding tumours, like in Course Oblivion when their enhanced warp drive proved toxic to their physicality because they were lying to themselves about who they were... Greg House would have had a field day with those quicksilver bastards.
Nothing bad happened worse than if the ship crashed into a small moon if the shields and structural integrity fields and hull integrity held.
Impact and impulse.
Same bollocks would have happened if they had too many wine coolers.
Maybe not the exploding consol's, but certainly the deaths, bumps and bruises from falling over at cockeyed angles.
The second time through, homeward bound, they'd know well enough to turn the warp core off (run on emergency battery power) and turn off the really explody bits and have seatbelts fixed everywhere, and give a 10 second countdown to get the crew ready and steady for the big woo-o-oosh..
Besides, if Kodos the executioner thought he would be remembered as a party dude for executing half his citizenship to make the food last longer for the surviving half, janeway comes off as a saint for only calling fate to lottery off 5 to 10 percent of the crew to get home in a few seconds.
As Q said "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid."
And with far less flair who with gonads of steel said "Risk is our business"?
In End game when the admiral said that it would take another 16 years and 23 deaths (almost the right numbers.) kathy should have had an orgasm and unfurled a mission accomplished banner that she was only going to have 1.4375 deaths on her conscience per year for the next decade and a half compared tot he mass slaughters she'd been at the head of for the previous 7 years.
The crew wasn't readied or steadied and neither was the ship.
People can get turned into jelly meshing into their windscreen if they're clocking over 2hundred mph. Jelly. No shit. No one was turned to jelly. They just fell over because they were surprised or banks of technobabble had an untoward but barely more violent than a hand full of fireworks reaction, which inflicted no proximate damage beyond a few feet.
Stadi is so hot.
What would have made the translocator effect as bad as you're describing is if some by product radiation gimmick broke down organic tissue or created exploding tumours, like in Course Oblivion when their enhanced warp drive proved toxic to their physicality because they were lying to themselves about who they were... Greg House would have had a field day with those quicksilver bastards.
Nothing bad happened worse than if the ship crashed into a small moon if the shields and structural integrity fields and hull integrity held.
Impact and impulse.
Same bollocks would have happened if they had too many wine coolers.
Maybe not the exploding consol's, but certainly the deaths, bumps and bruises from falling over at cockeyed angles.
The second time through, homeward bound, they'd know well enough to turn the warp core off (run on emergency battery power) and turn off the really explody bits and have seatbelts fixed everywhere, and give a 10 second countdown to get the crew ready and steady for the big woo-o-oosh..
Besides, if Kodos the executioner thought he would be remembered as a party dude for executing half his citizenship to make the food last longer for the surviving half, janeway comes off as a saint for only calling fate to lottery off 5 to 10 percent of the crew to get home in a few seconds.
As Q said "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid."
And with far less flair who with gonads of steel said "Risk is our business"?
In End game when the admiral said that it would take another 16 years and 23 deaths (almost the right numbers.) kathy should have had an orgasm and unfurled a mission accomplished banner that she was only going to have 1.4375 deaths on her conscience per year for the next decade and a half compared tot he mass slaughters she'd been at the head of for the previous 7 years.
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