If Jellico had stayed captain

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by DarKush, Jan 20, 2024.

  1. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've been looking at SeaQuest DSV, really for the first time, and I'm looking at season 3 now, and Michael Ironside's Captain Hudson reminds me of Captain Jellico. And it got me thinking about what if for whatever reason Picard hadn't come back, and Jellico stayed captain.

    How do you all think the rest of the series would've gone, as well as the TNG movies? Would there have been a Jellico-Kirk meeting in Generations? I imagine that they wouldn't have done First Contact, at least the same way because there was no relationship with Jellico and the Borg. A youthful Jellico in Insurrection could've been fun to see. Also, would there have been a Shinzon clone of Jellico? Would Jellico have quit Starfleet over the Romulans?

    For the series, I see Will Riker leaving, but they could just bring in Tom Riker. And I could see Data being made first officer, but it would also open the door to bring in another new character to be first officer or to take Data's old job, like how Fredericks came in with Hudson on SeaQuest.
     
  2. Jack Wolfe

    Jack Wolfe Commodore Commodore

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    For me, Jellico's hardass schtick would have worn thin quickly. It already had worn thin by the end of the two-parter, to be honest. I won't bother speculating about the course of the show with him as the lead character because I would have already jumped ship.
     
  3. Finn

    Finn Bad Batch of TrekBBS Admiral

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    They probably would have recast Jellico to avoid that.
     
  4. JesterFace

    JesterFace Fleet Captain Commodore

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    If Jellico would have stayed on the D, we wouldn't have a thread here that asks if Picard changed back to the original shift rotation.
     
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  5. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not sure that would have been necessary. After all, he came aboard to manage a (Cardassian) crisis. He might have softened up somewhat after that crisis was over, that wouldn't have been entirely implausible to me. Even though of course he never would have become a 2nd Picard.
     
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  6. Finn

    Finn Bad Batch of TrekBBS Admiral

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    I wouldn't say "necessary" but I wouldn't have been surprised. They would have make Jellico a different person (not to clash with Riker all the time, especially late in the show's run, all that). It wouldn't have been the first time we saw that in a show.
     
  7. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    Why would they need to recast? If Jellico had stayed and they wanted to soften the character, then you just write the character softer. Ronny Cox is perfectly capable of playing softer.

    Softer. :)
     
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  8. Bynar0110

    Bynar0110 Captain Captain

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    Jellico ends up more like. Bogomill from Beverly Hills Cop.
     
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  9. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    Jellico would not have had the trauma to be the focus of the story. Unless they wrote that Jellico lost someone at the Battle of Wolf 359.

    His crew would have the trauma though. Wonder who says "the line must be drawn here!" in the absence of Picard?

    IDK. Since there is a theory that the Romulans cloned Picard due to the information from Tasha Yar from the Yesterday’s Enterprise timeline, and that how they knew Picard would be important enough to clone in the future. AFAIK, Tasha and Jellico never crossed paths.

    Maybe NEM would have dealt with the clone of Picard, who’s backstory is that he escaped a Cardassian prison camp after several years there.

    Jellico would have listened to Kirk and not become an admiral, and thus, not become embittered over the Romulans because he’s not the one leading the evacuation.

    Or Tom Riker takes Data's old job.
     
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  10. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    Which IMO, never made much sense. Picard became a captain in an alternate timeline? Big whoop. Why wouldn't they clone someone who became an admiral in the alternate timeline? Or UFP president?

    Of course, the actual plan in NEM doesn't make a lot of sense either, unless they cloned multiple candidates. (My personal pref theory.)
     
  11. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's what I think a lot of people misread about the guy. Dude has elephant pics from his kid hanging in his office. There's no reason to assume he was going to be as unrelenting & uncompromising on a regular basis as he is in this crisis, or that being so was all on him. The hardass schtick was almost certainly deliberately that, & for a mission specific purpose. I imagine a crew aboard the Cairo who see him in an entirely different light, & one which he's led successfully, for a long stretch, in an entirely different way, because he'd had that luxury there, which he's been specifically denied aboard the D. Even by the end of the story he's more accommodating.

    He's told by command that the flagship is having its captain reassigned to what is explained to him to be a most likely fatal mission, and that his job is to assume command of what is mostly an exploratory & ambassadorial vessel, with the intent to use it to make a powerful stand with a significant adversary, conducting negotiations that are certain to fail, while also being adeptly readied for it to suddenly be on the front line of a war... by itself.

    Nechaev sent everyone into utter doom. 9 times out of 10, everybody on Picard's team & the entire 1701-D is lost because of her scheme. Worst of all, Riker IS an extremely capable commander, hero of Wolf 359 in fact, but has been determined to NOT be the best candidate to assume command here (correctly so imho)

    Jellico IS the man to handle this/them, as he proves/has proven. He's the known Cardassian troubleshooter, & since Picard is suspiciously the only guy able to take this new assignment, & the D is the ship of choice for the stand, Nechayev chooses to pass over Riker, which they MUST know will be objectionable to her crew. Why wouldn't it be?

    So Jellico already knows this is a place he is not welcome before he even shows up, & that he still has an impossible job to do there, under that condition. His options are to be an apologetic doormat about it all the time, when he must make changes that more align the ship & crew with something like Picard's Yesterday's Enterprise Wartime Enterprise, and has mere days to do it...

    OR he can just play the part he's been given, the new boss nobody wants, the same way Picard plays the unreasonable captain in the Sheliak situation, In Ensigns of Command, in which he at least has the good fortune of years of loyalty to lean on, whereas Jellico has only the fact that his new crew are considered the best.
     
  12. Admiral Archer

    Admiral Archer Captain Captain

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    I have never liked Jellico but you present a very compelling argument in defense of him. Now I gotta go home and watch Chain of Command again.
     
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  13. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I recommend repeated viewings. It's one of my favorites. Remember though, you're not supposed to like him. They knew you wouldn't. They knew we'd be predisposed to take the side of the D crew. We're biased, because we like the stars of our show. What Jellico was doing seemed antagonistic, based solely on that, & that's the game they're playing with us. He was bossy, & no one likes bossy people, but sometimes they're necessary. He honestly hasn't done anything all that wrong, as opposed to all the badmirals etc... that we usually see, & anything we might find objectionable in his demeanor, might have been him just accepting that he was never going to be in a position, for this mission, where he could be liked. So he played the role, to get them through it.

    Through an objective lens, where we set aside our predisposition to root for the show's leads, Jellico is not really a bad guy, just an uncompromising one, who may very well have had legit reasons to be so, that no one, least of all his subordinates, were privy to. In fact, as the events play out, it's obvious that it couldn't have gone as right as it did without him. His choices made it go the way it did.

    Riker (In command instead) would've made all the wrong decisions the Cardassians were counting on, mounting a rescue of Picard, that would've exposed them all, admitting Picard was under orders, which would've given the Cardassians just the advantage they were looking for, that would've forced Starfleet's hand & maybe gotten back some of the disputed territories. Command screwed up by letting themselves be baited into a trap, & Jellico was the only guy trying to get them out of it.
     
  14. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    - Picard is sent back to Earth to emotionally recover from his ordeal. I mean, they bullied him out of the captain's seat because he looked like a kid, but he undergoes a horrific ordeal and just comes back like nothing happened? He could make guest appearances as an admiral.
    - After some repeated conflicts, Riker takes the hint... and his own ship. The Titan makes periodic guest appearances, too. And Jonathan Frakes directs a lot more episodes.
    - Data is elevated to First Officer, and promoted to Commander. While he mostly rocks the red, he must adjust to the reality of his new position (personnel management). A still uniformed Deanna Troi helps him out.
    - Geordi warms to Jellico as his workload stabilizes. Beverly comes to understand that Jellico's overall goal is his crew's safety and survival, so same thing.
    - Worf is elevated to LCDR and second officer, and given more of a role in ensuring battle preparedness. And gets to blow stuff up more often. He's happy as a pig in... ah, mud.
    - In other characters, we see Jellico's human side shine through. Maybe he fought in the Cardassian war, and empathizes with Ro. Or maybe he had trouble relating with people, like Barclay. And maybe (being a parent) he gives Worf some advice with Alexander.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I welcome this change.

    Jellico reminds me of Captain Boone on JAG.
     
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  16. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Commodore

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    That didn't work in my case, I was completely in Jellico's side, the Enterprise crew (especially Riker and Geordie) felt like entitled crybabies. Waahh, the captain isn't nice and gives me orders I don't personally love ... well, though shit, do your job anyway. And it wasn't even a problem in the end, despite Riker whining that switching to a four shift rotation would be hard and Geordie complaining that many of his staff were transferred to security not a single actual problem arose because of those changes.

    I think it's more likely Troi becomes second officer in that scenario, Jellico seemed to respect her a lot, putting her in a uniform and referring to her by rank instead of job title, he called and introduced her to others as Lt. Commander Troi, he heavily relied on her during negotiations with the cardassians and she already does crew evaluations. We know from later in the series that all it takes for her to become a bridge officer capable of taking command is to take the bridge officer's test which she did in a single episode, Jellico seems like the kind of captain who would guide her in that direction and elevate her to a much higher position on the ship.
    While Jellico wanted the ship to be prepared for battle he was more invested in preventing it so I'm not sure "I suggest violence!" Worf would be his first choice, an empath and psychologist who can give him an advantage in many situations seems like someone Jellico would prefer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2024
  17. aquova

    aquova Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    A lot of people seem a lot more impressed with Jellico than I ever have been. His hardass persona is one thing, but he never seemed terribly competent despite that. He continually plays mindgames with the Cardassians which just undermines his position and he ends up having egg on his face more than once. Granted, Riker was also being pretty whiny the whole time, but I never thought Jellico was supposed to be an inspirational character.

    While we're discussing this episode though, I want to say I've always found the premise of "let's have Picard, a middle-aged man who works a desk job, go on this highly skilled black op" is such a weird choice.
     
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  18. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would have stopped watching.

    By now this is all I have to say about this topic.
     
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  19. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From my point of view, he was playing mind games in the beginning because that was the bent of the whole thing. They were angling for advantage, so he was too. The whole thing was mind games. Any egg on his face came from having unknown info used against him, namely that the Cardassians had discovered the Celtris III incursion, & then again later when they drop on him that they have Picard captured. From that point on, Starfleet really has no leverage in the negotiations, and have to backpedal until they can come up with a solution.

    Interestingly, much earlier, while talking privately with Picard, Jellico already states that the negotiations are very likely to fail. Everybody from Jellico up through the chain of command expects this will end in war. This whole thing is a Hail Mary pass to begin with, but as to his competency, he takes a disadvantaged position, & then uses the Enterprise crew & resources to turn things around for them, & get out in front of the Cardassian scheme, which solves the crisis, & saves Picard, sending the Cardies back home with their tail between their legs. Everybody should be glad he was on point here imho.
     
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  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think Jellico is meant as an inspirational character, but I don't think he should be rejected out of hand, which is the more common response. I think, if he continued on, he would be up and become more endearing, and potentially become as inspirational is Picard is regarded now. I don't think Picard was as inspirational in Season 1 as he might be in Season 3 or 4. Jellico is the same for me.

    Indeed. And he works with the crew being against him. Which is ridiculously unprofessional on the crew's part, especially in the middle of a crisis.
     
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