If Janeway really had the heart of an explorer in her...

[7thsealord]

When TNG Started, "our" Galaxy was tiny.

Now however, The Gamma Quadrant is explored or owned by a known quantity, the beta Quadrant is in the hands of the Klingons and Romulans, and the Delta Quadrant has ten percent being Borg Space, SOMEHOW 2 percent is Kazon, The Hirgen roam bout another 10 percent clinging to that communications network Voyager broke, but the Skirikans seem to have their grasp extending into the Beta and Gamma Quadrant.

The MIlky Way is Tiny.

Two dimensional thinking, GG?

My understanding is that the UFP, or most of it, is IN the Alpha Quadrant, but that does not mean they have fully explored, claimed and/or occupied all of it. Certainly, that is where most of TNG's adventures happen.

Ditto for the Klingons and Romulans in the Beta Quadrant. It might be "their" quadrant, for the most part, but that doesn't there isn't room for anybody / anything else.

As for elsewhere, seems to me that Voyager spent a fair whack of travel-time in space that seemed to belong to nobody in particular. The Hirgen have the remnants of a galaxy-spanning comm network, but holding territory and building infrastructure doesn't seem to have been a priority for a while. More like just a daisy-chain of commnodes / pitstops scattered all over, so they can do their macho hunting thing wherever they want. Given their way of doing things, I am unsure of their relevance in your assessment.

Two to four hundred billion stars in this particular galaxy (by current estimates). Not all of which have Class M worlds, of course, but even one percent cubed of that number would still mean a crapload (and current estimates are higher than this). Plus an unknown number of starfaring races, spacial anomalies, etc., etc., etc..

As Galaxies go, the Milky Way is a long way from being the biggest. But for we mere mortals, it is most definitely not tiny.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lumping me in with Khan.

The Galaxy is on a plane. Her depth inconsiderable compared to it's length and breadth.

The Romulans left Vulcan 2000 years ago after a Nuclear civil war. If you believe believe Sargon, his lot from Return to Tomorrow colonized Vulcan 600 Thousand Years ago, which didn't seem such a horrible idea enough for Spock to say "Bollocks."

The Klingons have been in Space since the 1600 hundreds, but I forget where to find the exact citation.

Oh,I had this knocking aboutin my head when i replied to you but here's the exact quote from "Where No One has been Before"

KOSINSKI: Why not? Yes, of course. Since I'm the one who has made the so-called warp barrier meaningless. And, Captain, this must be a special thrill for you.
PICARD: Thrill?
KOSINSKI: As an explorer. In three centuries of space flight, we've charted just eleven percent of our galaxy. And then we accomplish this.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Charted is not the same as "we've been there". How much of that eleven percent was probes, or starmaps given to them by their allies?

But even if you're right (and you're not), that's less than four percent of the galaxy charted every hundred years. But you think the Federation will SPAN the galaxy in another SEVENTY?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If the Romulans, Klingons, Borg and Dominion sign up, adding their knowledge of the galaxy and their territory to the Federation, then yes.

They've gotten to the point where natural expansion into unoccupied space is difficult and they have to assimilate.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Uh.

No.

Those guys would never join the Federation. And even if they would (they wouldn't though)? You're saying Janeway was stupid for not forseeing future events and acting accordingly.

 

[7thsealord]

I would count in that alleged eleven percent all the charting that has been done, not just by the UFP but a lot of people that the UFP has met. And charting is most definitely NOT the same as claiming as territory or actively colonizing or whatever.

I have a wallchart of the Solar System hanging up in my home. But the fact that I have it does not make me the rightful Overlord Of Jupiter.

 

[7thsealord]

Lumping me in with Khan.

The Galaxy is on a plane. Her depth inconsiderable compared to it's length and breadth.

Only as a matter of proportion.

The Milky Way is given as 100,000 light years in diameter. Average thickness is given to be 1,000 light years - but it is considerably thicker at the core and thinner at the outer edge. Even so, 1,000 light years is a not inconsiderable distance from a Human perspective - whether 21st or 23rd century.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You ever got into a fight with someone one thousand times smaller or lighter than you are?

Besides, it really becomes a question of how impressive do you find the great barrier, then the centre of the galaxy where the starfirelds are most densely packed and as you've already explained has the greatest depth (and height).

Humanity only has access to the thin edge of the wedge.

 

[JarodRussell]

But how would the crew have reacted if Janeway had decided to go forward instead of recoiling to wards the home front?

Dude, she did go forward. Voyager explored almost the entire Delta Quadrant on its way "back". And what is exploration good for when you don't return to your homebase and tell them about everything?

 

[7thsealord]

You ever got into a fight with someone one thousand times smaller or lighter than you are?

Besides, it really becomes a question of how impressive do you find the great barrier, then the centre of the galaxy where the starfirelds are most densely packed and as you've already explained has the greatest depth (and height).

Humanity only has access to the thin edge of the wedge.

I have been in arguments with people a thousand times less smart than me. Mostly, it is annoying.

.... And I am afraid that whatever points you think you are making here totally eludes me. Sorry.

 

[Sandoval]

I have been in arguments with people a thousand times less smart than me.

That's quite a claim.

How dumb were they then!?

 

[Elias Vaughn]

You ever got into a fight with someone one thousand times smaller or lighter than you are?

Besides, it really becomes a question of how impressive do you find the great barrier, then the centre of the galaxy where the starfirelds are most densely packed and as you've already explained has the greatest depth (and height).

Humanity only has access to the thin edge of the wedge.

If it takes a starship seventy years to travel seventy thousand light years, it takes a year to travel one thousand lightyears.

The galaxy's thick enough that it would take a starship a year to travel the distance.

That is not a small distance.

 

[Sandoval]

Voyager explored almost the entire Delta Quadrant on its way "back".

No, you're misunderstanding how vast a galactic quadrant is I'm afraid.

By your logic I could walk in a straight line from New York to San Francisco and claim to have explored the whole of America.

Voyager explored an extremely narrow corridor of the Delta Quadrant on its way back, not the entire Delta Quadrant.

That's just silly.

 

[JarodRussell]

Well certainly in these 7 seasons they explored a lot more of the galaxy than Kirk or Picard ever did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But they traded maps with every one they met, which isn't technically Prime Directive legal, but from that narrow corridor they virtually explored thousands of worlds by proxy and degrees of separation.

"cheating"

Does Janeway get credit for stealing Borg cartography when she took "Seven"?

This is what they know.

Federation science knows where every star in the galaxy is.

They know which stars have M Class planets, and they know which stars/planets have a warp capable culture living there abouts because of pollution and other factors.

They just don't know pertinent details like names, décor and political leanings.

Elias, you don't chart a course through space as the crow the flies.

You target jumps between resources and depots to make sure your ship doesn't run out of fuel or your crew starves. Not to mention, Janewy wants to meet strange new cultures and new civilizations, even if she doesn't know if she's going to find assholes or angels when she aarives uninvited on these new cultures and new civilizations doorsteps... But if Janeway's ship was capable of going years without servicing or topping up beyong factory specifications, that they only needed to stop off at every second or third planet they were supposed to per the original course Kim constructed after Caretaker, she could've knocked decades off the trip.

The Borg know the galaxy better, which is why Seven thought that it would take 66 years to travels 70 thousand light years.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

But they traded maps with every one they met, which isn't technically Prime Directive legal, but from that narrow corridor they virtually explored thousands of worlds by proxy and degrees of separation.

http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/europe/norway_rel96.jpg

You have now thoroughly explored all of Norway! Congratulations!

Federation science knows where every star in the galaxy is.

They know which stars have M Class planets, and they know which stars/planets have a warp capable culture living there abouts because of pollution and other factors.

Uh

No, they don't. Hence every episode of Star Trek where they discovered a new planet. Or discovered a new spatial anomaly. Or discovered anything. You cannot by definition discover something if you already know it's there.

Elias, you don't chart a course through space as the crow the flies.

And yet, they did on the actual show.

The Borg know the galaxy better, which is why Seven thought that it would take 66 years to travels 70 thousand light years.

And now you're contradicting yourself.

How can the Borg "know the galaxy better" if "Federation science knows where every star in the galaxy is"?

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg know the species on many planets that the Federation can only suspect may probably contain developed life or not. It's about me trying to decide whether Norway or Florida looks more like a wang than the other without getting on your hands and knees and giving a good strong lick? You know like what the Pope does every time he gets off the plane.

As individuals we take credit for the accomplishments of humanity outright.

We're bastards?

How could they chart a route home if they didn't know where most of the interesting stars are? I've seen there maps over shoulder (before stellar cartography) besides, even if they didn't know where most of the stars were, by name and description, what they had done was divide up (all) the quadrant(s) into sectors and there was probably a few Identifiable positions that been had categorized in each sector to make sure it was distinctly identifiable.

DATA: Curious. We are not where we are supposed to be.
LAFORGE: What do you mean? We're on the other side of the wormhole, aren't we ?
DATA: According to the Barzan probe, we should be in the Gamma Quadrant but these readings clearly indicate we are nearly two hundred light years away in sector three five five six of the Delta Quadrant.
LAFORGE: Maybe the Barzan readings were wrong.
DATA: Perhaps the readings were correct. Their probe could have exited the wormhole at a completely different location.

Wow, wikipedia says that earth is 27 thousand light years from the galactic centre.

Berman had me thinking that it was really clinging to the rim.

 

[7thsealord]

I have been in arguments with people a thousand times less smart than me.

That's quite a claim.

How dumb were they then!?

The Internet, dude.

 

[7thsealord]

Noting also that the UFP had things like the Argus Array (seen in 'Parallels', one of my favourite episodes). Depending on how long that, plus any equivalents and predecessors, has been operational they could have done a fair bit of preliminary charting of much of the Galaxy and quite a way beyond. Probably wouldn't do a dang thing as regards analyzing lifeforms, cultures or those pesky 'hidden anomalies' but, given time, it would certainly assemble one heckuva roadmap.

Given just how much the Hubble Telescope and kindred have opened up things for us in recent years, you want to think about what something a ####load bigger than those devices and running on 23rd Century technology might be capable of? Reading newsprint in Andromeda comes to mind.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No point.

Andromeda is dying.

The radiation levels are rising mentally.

Which is why the kelvins left.