"If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

[Therin of Andor]

STV is a dream, all of ENT is Riker playing on the holodeck between scenes of TNG episodes, all of VOY is Barclay playing on the Project Pathfinder holodeck, everything post-GENS is Picard's Nexus fantasy and every scene of every episode is set in a different "Parallels" reality anyhow.

Everything after "The Cage" is a Talosian illusion. Except the DS9 bits written by Benny Russell.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ha ha, I forgot all about those!

 

[Robert Comsol]

I thought STV was just a dream? I mean, Kirk goes to sleep in Yosemite, Sybok happens, Kirk is now awake, in Yosemite. All a bad dream.

It's the McCoy family beans recipe that did it.

Let's check this interesting and very palatable theory:

• Our protagonists go to sleep
• They wake up some time during the night (probably all still being used to the work shifts rythms aboard the Enterprise or Spock complaining it's getting too cold for him)
• They listen to Spock's music

A forensic analysis of the picture reveals that it's exactly the same spot. If the clothes they wear are the same, too, I'd say we have a winner.

Bob

 

[JarodRussell]

Don't get why STV needs to be "apocryphal". Spock has a half brother who decided to follow emotions, and who kidnaps the Enterprise in order to get to a planet where a powerful creature lives that pretends to be God. During the escape, Spock's brother is killed, and eventually the God creature is destroyed as well. That's a perfectly fine story. Had it been a TOS episode, nobody would bat an eye.

Just because of deck numbers and visual effects, everyone loses their minds.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Don't get why STV needs to be "apocryphal".

It doesn't have to be, of course, but when Shatner gleefully announced his premise for ST V, DC Fontana was asked to comment on her memo from the 60s in which she stated that, in order to preserve Spock's uniqueness in the ongoing TV series, writers were discouraged from being tempted to bring all manner of Spock siblings into the mix. The story probably would have been just as effective if Sybok had been a mentor or teacher, during the years when Sarek had shunned Spock.

After viewing the resulting script and film, Gene Roddenberry was quoted that he "considered parts of the movie to be apocryphal".

GR also disliked the concept of McCoy killing his own father, but De Kelley had appreciated the opportunity to play that scene.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Just because of deck numbers and visual effects, everyone loses their minds.

Not true. In the movie "everyone" looses his/her mind, swallows a blue pill and doesn't mind being brainwashed while the great Captain Kirk / William Shatner is the only guy with balls and a backbone and the ultimate philosopher:

KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

Given this strong philosophical message in the best TOS tradition, I'd almost be tempted to rate this movie "A".

Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of every other Star Trek character in order to "paint" the James Kirk character larger than life. That should qualify for not that much more than an "F".

Bob

 

[F. King Daniel]

Somehow, fans popularly remember that but very little of the other stuff he considered apocryphal - like almost all of TOS ("I have never been so foolishly heroic as depicted..." he writes as Kirk in the TMP novel, backed up by interview comments from Paula Block here. That link also has a quote from Roddenberry saying Wrath of Khan "is not Star Trek") and I read somewhere that Gene also felt the same about VI as he did V, believing that Starfleet officers were beyond things like racism (apparently "Balance of Terror" is especially apocryphal) but I can't find that quote right now.

This is why I'm glad GR never got to officially pick and choose which episodes/movies count and which don't. The guy seemed intent on reimagining the Trek universe, at the cost of what made it great in the first place.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of every other Star Trek character in order to "paint" the James Kirk character larger than life. That should qualify for not that much more than an "F".

I'm no fan of STV, but that much was pretty consistent with the series. More often than not, the rest of the crew couldn't wipe their butts without Kirk there to order them. Even Spock didn't have the backbone to stand up to Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" until he got Kirk on the phone.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

That really should have been DeForest Kelley's line.

 

[Robert Comsol]

More often than not, the rest of the crew couldn't wipe their butts without Kirk there to order them. Even Spock didn't have the backbone to stand up to Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" until he got Kirk on the phone.

I'm afraid that's like comparing apples and oranges. The crew was following orders because they were supposed to. Decker was outranking Spock but he was screwing with "Kirk's ship", and we all know how protective Kirk was about the Enterprise.

However, no one was forced or ordered to undergo brainwashing in ST V. The basic premise (everyone suffers from some trauma) is debatable itself, but that Kirk was the only one to stand against it (and not McCoy) is just too hard to believe, IMHO.

Bob

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

This is why I'm glad GR never got to officially pick and choose which episodes/movies count and which don't. The guy seemed intent on reimagining the Trek universe, at the cost of what made it great in the first place.

Well, but he did. For the first couple of seasons of TNG anyway. And for the duration TMP was produced.

Then again, "canon" only holds actual relevance for people actively involved in the production of new Trek. If any writer had tried to insert something GR regarded apocryphal during the first season of TNG, he or she would have almost certainly been forbidden to do so by Roddenberry. Nevertheless, Roddenberry-unrelated stuff like Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was still being produced and distributed by Paramount.

 

[The Old Mixer]

However, no one was forced or ordered to undergo brainwashing in ST V. The basic premise (everyone suffers from some trauma) is debatable itself, but that Kirk was the only one to stand against it (and not McCoy) is just too hard to believe, IMHO.

Not at all, because Kirk is and always was the Big Damn Hero on TOS. The crew in general were brainwashed or otherwise under alien influences on several occasions. Why would McCoy suddenly take the heroic role of being able to shake off such influence by sheer willpower?

 

[Tulin]

What the HELL was that?!?!

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Captain Kirk advertises DirectTV

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voILEz4iD_8[/yt]

 

[C.E. Evans]

However, no one was forced or ordered to undergo brainwashing in ST V. The basic premise (everyone suffers from some trauma) is debatable itself, but that Kirk was the only one to stand against it (and not McCoy) is just too hard to believe, IMHO.

Not at all, because Kirk is and always was the Big Damn Hero on TOS. The crew in general were brainwashed or otherwise under alien influences on several occasions. Why would McCoy suddenly take the heroic role of being able to shake off such influence by sheer willpower?

Because he did. Kirk did not stand alone.

Sybok showed Spock and McCoy their hidden pain, yet both did resist joining him.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Only after Kirk's example inspires him, IIRC.

 

[DS9forever]

Cool ad. I was really surprised to see Simon Cadell from Hi-de-Hi! pop up at the end!

 

[C.E. Evans]

Only after Kirk's example inspires him, IIRC.

Actually, it was a case that McCoy chose to stand with his friends rather than follow Sybok.

 

[Armored Saint]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfNv9qLvy4&list=PLqu8N9YhbFvncycQqhsvT0WMPTteVyXnd[/yt]
^It appeared on TV

A lot of straight dude would act as Kirk after this kind of transporter accident. I just hope there was not a fly with them.

]Unless the Enterprise-A had, indeed, been put together by monkeys (as Scotty suspected) that scene can't possibly be canon for multiple known reasons

• The numbering of the decks always starts at the top (Bridge) and then continues down, not the other way around
• The Enterprise-A doesn't have that many decks
• There are no (turbo lift) cars in that shaft, although we see both ends of the shaft

Illogical, you collaterally make apocryphal Balance of Terror or all post-BOT stuff because there's a big discontinuity about weaponry.

 

[Robert Comsol]

]Unless the Enterprise-A had, indeed, been put together by monkeys (as Scotty suspected) that scene can't possibly be canon for multiple known reasons

• The numbering of the decks always starts at the top (Bridge) and then continues down, not the other way around
• The Enterprise-A doesn't have that many decks
• There are no (turbo lift) cars in that shaft, although we see both ends of the shaft

Illogical, you collaterally make apocryphal Balance of Terror or all post-BOT stuff because there's a big discontinuity about weaponry.

Huh? I can't possibly see what weaponry has anything to do with my post. Please post comments in the corresponding and correct threads.

Bob