"If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Fuzzy Modem, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I think the point is, if a deck numbering discrepancy disqualifies a movie from canon, then the same standard should apply to all of Trek, good or bad - and BoT's bizarre use of phasers (which were what became photon torpedoes once TPTB finalized how their show's weapons would work) would similarly disqualify it from canon, too.
     
  2. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    A deck number error constitutes being evicted from canon? It's these sorts of discussions which fulfill every preconception of ST geeks.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Hey, in my defence I'm arguing against said happening!:lol:
     
  4. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly!
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's ridiculous. Canon doesn't equal continuity, and the very idea that one continuity error would or even should render the entirety of a work non-canonical is laughable.

    Hell, by that standard most of TOS goes right out the window because later episodes have continuity issues with earlier episodes.
     
  6. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Neil The Hippy Premium Member

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    Every episode exists in a separate universe. ;)
     
  7. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it would have made more sense if Sybok had not been the son of Sarek and not only because he's not mentioned in anyother canon story. Sybok as a teacher, childhood friend or cousin is pretty insertable in the conflictual relationship between Sarek and Spock. As a biological son partly raised with Amanda....seriously Sarek, your older son was officially ostracized because he totally rejected the Vulcan cultures, what's the matter with Spock?
     
  8. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    The turbo shaft scene in ST V definitely asks to be evicted from canon. I prefer not to recall the exact number of deck levels but in the final edit even the chronology of deck numbers is screwed up. Maybe Timo would have an idea how to reasonably rationalize it, I definitely do not.

    Regarding the "photon torpedo look" of phaser fire in "Balance of Terror" it's obviously owed to the fact that that early in Star Trek production they hadn't even envisioned the concept of the photon torpedo, yet (which it is apparently in later episodes which tells us it became a changed premise). I think it would be appropriate to cut the TOS producers at that early stage of "Star Trek becoming" some slack here.

    @ DonIago

    Could you please specify some of these TOS continuity issues you mentioned?

    Bob
     
  9. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The deck numbers could easily be corrected in a special edition. Heck, anyone with Photoshop could correct it in a days work. And everyone can just change the numbers in his mind. So I don't see what's the big deal there.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    @Robert: We can start with James R. Kirk.

    Or we can start with Spock smiling in "The Cage".

    I'm good either way.
     
  11. PicardSpeedo

    PicardSpeedo Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    How about that time when they remote controlled Spock's entire body with a Coleco controller in "Spock's Brain" despite his brain being entirely absent from his body, yet by the time Worf takes a tumble in the shuttlebay in TNG, procedures such as even basic spinal surgery are considered impossible and dangerous?
     
  12. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    Okay, this one doesn't show up on a personnel file (like the ones of Dehner and Mitchell) but on a tombstone created by Crazy Gary who has become rather evil at that point in WNM and is possibly showing off his wicked humor:

    The first Stardate 1277.1 could just indicate the beginning of Kirk's captaincy aboard the Enterprise ("see how short your career as starship captain has been" :evil:) and regarding the "R" I once read that it stood for "Rice", a derogatory academy nickname (:evil:).

    Either the producers hadn't decided yet how to fine-tune the Spock character at this early stage of production and/or the half-human Spock had loosened up in his early Starfleet years (being among smiling humans) before deciding to favor Vulcan ways over human ones.

    I really don't see a continuity issue here, except for the eyebrows that finally looked different. ;)

    On the contrary, the producers paid a lot of attention to continuity. Already in WNM Spock hints a female human ancestor (to become his mother) and in "The Corbomite Maneuver" states that Balok reminded him a lot of his authoritarian father - whom we saw act exactly as suggested in "Journey to Babel".

    @ JarodRussell

    At this point in time the erroneous turbo shaft deck numbering in ST V has not been fixed. Frankly, I think it would be better to delete this entire scene.

    It's also noticable that Kirk asks Scotty for directions and not Spock. However, a few shots later, Spock remembers exactly where to find a spare pair of rocket boots on such a short notice, suggesting he did know the layout of the lower levels of the ship. :rolleyes:

    Bob
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So it's okay to handwave the points I brought up but it's not okay to handwave the deck #'s?
     
  14. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    ^^ I belief it is okay to find rationalizations (even unorthodox ones) to explain apparent contradictions or apparent continuity errors.

    In this particular example, however, the numbers are quite obviously linked to deck levels ("Deck XX").
    Theoretically, NCC-1701-A could be a much bigger ship than NCC-1701 and seen leaving a much bigger Earth Spacedock in TUC (doors big enough to allow passage for a Galaxy Class starship).

    However, the footage of the shuttlebay in ST V suggests that NCC-1701-A is not bigger than NCC-1701 and therefore there is simply no space for 78+ (:eek:) decks.

    Bob
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps you're just not being creative enough to come up with a way to rationalize it. :p
     
  16. PicardSpeedo

    PicardSpeedo Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Turbolift shafts use TARDIS technology. Bigger on the inside.

    Problem solved.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The ship was built in a hurry, the turboshafts used pre-fab elements originally not intended to be put together in the order they were, but since they were sent to Nimbus III in a hurry the signage issue wasn't addressed. Besides, you don't see those signs 99% of the time anyhow. :p
     
  18. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    ^^ That's a good one. :techman: Pre-fab elements or leftovers from Earth Spacedock. Then have the shaft assembled by relatives of Curious George (as Scotty suggested) and voila!

    OTOH the deck level signs look like they are individually attached. And maybe someone could tell me where to find an exit and/or turbo lift door on any of these levels. :confused:

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, if the prevailing philosophy was "get the ship built ASAP" and it doesn't really matter in what order you put the sections together...
     
  20. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Adding to the TARDIS effect of the turbolifts- IIRC they pass some of the decks more than once.