If Data couldn't feel emotions, was he truly conscious?

[Discofan]

1) Picard in spite of what he says still considers Data as nothing more than a piece of equipment. In one episode he talked about having Data stripped to his wires to see what was wrong with him. He wouldn't talk like that to a sentient being, human or otherwise, no matter what they had done.

2) Data himself doesn't consider himself as anything more than a piece of equipment. He had his brother dismantled after the Descent two-parter. That's something you do to a machine, not to a sentient being. Remember that the federation has no death penalty.

So not only does Picard who defended Data at his trial not consider him truly as a sentient being but even Data doesn't consider himself that way.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

1) Picard in spite of what he says still considers Data as nothing more than a piece of equipment. In one episode he talked about having Data stripped to his wires to see what was wrong with him. He wouldn't talk like that to a sentient being, human or otherwise, no matter what they had done.

2) Data himself doesn't consider himself as anything more than a piece of equipment. He had his brother dismantled after the Descent two-parter. That's something you do to a machine, not to a sentient being. Remember that the federation has no death penalty.

So not only does Picard who defended Data at his trial not consider him truly as a sentient being but even Data doesn't consider himself that way.

Thank you I've noticed that through TNG

 

[Nakita Akita]

Data aside, I personally consider people with altzheimers, severe mental retardation, brain damage etc. as conscious beings.

 

[Discofan]

Data aside, I personally consider people with altzheimers, severe mental retardation, brain damage etc. as conscious beings.

Apples and wooden legs.

 

[Delta Geminorum]

"Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills and no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you’ve been given by design." Spock to Data

 

[Discofan]

"Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills and no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you’ve been given by design." Spock to Data

I've seen the episode.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Apples and wooden legs.

I'm not even sure what that means.

 

[Discofan]

I'm not even sure what that means.

Worse than "Apples and oranges".

 

[Timo]

It doesn't make sense for Data to exact revenge at all, it would go against his ethical program.

Again, where does this come from? Data incapable of lying? Data being Asimovian? Data having a crippling ethical program? That's not who Data is. Data the Star Trek character is defined in the show Star Trek - and there he's a fluent and accomplished actor and liar, and an efficient and ruthless killer who typically selects his victims according to the wishes of his employer, but sometimes operates outside the confines of his primary employment

The ignoramus Kivas Fajo believes Data is incapable of harming him because of the android's root programming. However, he's clearly mistaken, as Data frequently disposes of adversaries, both armed and unarmed, choosing lethal or nonlethal means on a case-by-case basis. That he doesn't overwhelm Fajo is down to two factors: Fajo threatening harm on others, and Data literally being Man of Steel, impervious to Fajo's futile attacks and therefore at liberty to simply stand back.

Which is why "self defense" doesn't cut it as a rationale for Data's actions: he was on top of the situation there, holding the villain at gunpoint and having the ultimate drop on the villain's impotent henchmen ("Stop or I'll kill the one who pays you!"), not to mention standing in an airlock where everybody else would be at a fatal disadvantage.

The most believable explanation IMO is that Data thought that it was the only way that he could prevent Fajo to kill more people in the Future. So he was acting in a sort of vicarious self-defense situation.

That, too, is a bit dubious, though: Data had already stopped Fajo. If the villain decided to continue to pursue his evil ways, Data could simply, say, shoot his ship full of holes, while leaving the villain alive and fuming and waiting for the authorities to collect him.

Not that Data would have much difficulty convincing a Federation court of the need to act like he did, if it came to that. He is a smooth liar, after all...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Again, where does this come from? Data incapable of lying? Data being Asimovian? Data having a crippling ethical program? That's not who Data is. Data the Star Trek character is defined in the show Star Trek - and there he's a fluent and accomplished actor and liar, and an efficient and ruthless killer who typically selects his victims according to the wishes of his employer, but sometimes operates outside the confines of his primary employment

The ignoramus Kivas Fajo believes Data is incapable of harming him because of the android's root programming. However, he's clearly mistaken, as Data frequently disposes of adversaries, both armed and unarmed, choosing lethal or nonlethal means on a case-by-case basis. That he doesn't overwhelm Fajo is down to two factors: Fajo threatening harm on others, and Data literally being Man of Steel, impervious to Fajo's futile attacks and therefore at liberty to simply stand back.

Which is why "self defense" doesn't cut it as a rationale for Data's actions: he was on top of the situation there, holding the villain at gunpoint and having the ultimate drop on the villain's impotent henchmen ("Stop or I'll kill the one who pays you!"), not to mention standing in an airlock where everybody else would be at a fatal disadvantage.



That, too, is a bit dubious, though: Data had already stopped Fajo. If the villain decided to continue to pursue his evil ways, Data could simply, say, shoot his ship full of holes, while leaving the villain alive and fuming and waiting for the authorities to collect him.

Not that Data would have much difficulty convincing a Federation court of the need to act like he did, if it came to that. He is a smooth liar, after all...

Timo Saloniemi

Data speaks of his ethical program several times.

 

[Timo]

....In the process never suggesting it would feature a line saying "I can't kill folks I don't like".

But of course he is a skilled liar.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JesterFace]

1) Picard in spite of what he says still considers Data as nothing more than a piece of equipment. In one episode he talked about having Data stripped to his wires to see what was wrong with him. He wouldn't talk like that to a sentient being, human or otherwise, no matter what they had done.

Maybe Picard said what he said to get his point across, I guess he didn't literally mean what he said?

 

[DonIago]

That's been my interpretation.

 

[Prax]

It seems that Soong androids are inherently evil. Lore is a psychopath, and Data, once he gets his emotional chip, turns into an a-hole, which can only mean that Dr. Soong is a narcissistic sociopathic a-hole, and can't help but program his androids with emotions as he knows them.
And we can take it further. The writers have to write Data, Lore, and Soong(Sooongs?) with what works for the the character. These characters are totally informed by the actor who portrays them.

Conclusion: Deep down(or not so deep down) Brent Spiner is an evil asshole.

 

[JesterFace]

It seems that Soong androids are inherently evil. Lore is a psychopath, and Data, once he gets his emotional chip, turns into an a-hole, which can only mean that Dr. Soong is a narcissistic sociopathic a-hole, and can't help but program his androids with emotions as he knows them.
And we can take it further. The writers have to write Data, Lore, and Soong(Sooongs?) with what works for the the character. These characters are totally informed by the actor who portrays them.

Conclusion: Deep down(or not so deep down) Brent Spiner is an evil asshole.

If Soong really is a massive tool, he might program his creations to be like him, maybe without even realizing it.
He is a human, that's the way he sees people, a-holes.

 

[Mojochi]

I feel it was revenge. If it was just plain logic why did he lie about the phaser at the end of the episode?

That he lied doesn't dictate that he must have done so as a coverup for revenge. Sure it's a remote possibility, but given Data's entire history, the least likely one. It's far more likely he lied, because the truth could be interpreted in a way, that wouldn't be in his best interest, even as Fajo was a clean kill, by my account, since he was still in command of his ship, & still a threat to lives.

Without being too indelicate, Data suffers from Starfleet's equivalent of Jim Crow. He is an oppressed individual. Whenever the issue of his liberty or his equality comes up, the knee jerk default is to deny him. Refusing an experiment? No. You're a toaster, until you fight for it. Have a daughter? Nope. We'll handle that. Want a promotion? Nah. Not even when everyone else is getting them. Even your greatest advocate Picard will have to be reminded, by you, that you merit a command, when it comes up in the course of duty (Redemption 2)

He'll even remind you of your subjugated status, if another situation arises that calls your dependability into doubt (Clues) I'm not saying Picard was personally threatening Data with being stripped down to his wires. He's only warning him that's what others in Starfleet would likely do, & he was accurate to point it out.

Taking all that into account, Data has more reason than anybody to be suspicious of Starfleet treating him fairly, because they never do. Now consider Fajo. He was killing him, & the reason for it was just imho. However, the scene explains that in order to do so he must disregard a directive he has about killing. If that directive or program (or whatever) was known to Starfleet, & it then became known that he disregarded it, is it not a possibility that such being known might bring into question what they trust about Data?

Does Data need that potentially happening AGAIN? Starfleet prodding into what they trust about Data, when they ALREADY don't trust him to be a captain, a guardian, or even a free individual at one point, has catastrophic possibilities for him. Frankly, being able to kill Fajo just puts Data on the same footing as any other person in that situation, but that he isn't supposed to be on the same footing with everyone else can too easily be held against him by the people in charge, like it always has been.

It's better they not know, & Data knows that, especially since it didn't come to that anyhow, & it wasn't in the line of duty either. It was personal. So Riker & anybody he'd be reporting to about it have no specific grounds to push for an answer, which is probably why no one does. It nobody's damn business, & what good could come of it? and that's how I've always interpreted Data's refusal to offer the whole truth

 

[Delta Geminorum]

Wasn't Data's grandfather a tool as well?

 

[Prax]

They have the evil gene

 

[DonIago]

His grandfather was a toaster and his grandmother smelt of elderberries.

 

[Qonundrum]

But he does feel emotions. He felt revenge in The Most Toys. Then lied about it.

And by the next episode the off switch was in place and he had none once again. TMT was an oddball episode, but an interesting and entertaining one - if not more interesting had this avenue been pursued later in the same season instead of dropped, replaced by Data's later attempts in later seasons to replicate human behavior. The writers didn't really know what to do, or risk changing Data's character irrevocably so the Reset Button(tm) got pressed.

Worse, by the time the TNG movies take place, it's a whole shopping mall filled with Bigger Blingy Buttons(tm) that got pressed by the hyperactive seven year-old running around: Data gets the chip installed, but it's not just defective - it's also fused and cannot be removed. Ruh-roh. By the next movie he can turn it off then on again, on command, even told as a joke, all without a fair explanation as to how they fixed the issues since nobody had schematics and all... and that's before the Borg tinkered with it, even though the Borg used to say he wasn't needed in their new order (per Locutus, why is the Queen so hot to do some form of inversion on the trope - now giving robots humanoid flesh as if she's Dr Frankenstein? Actually, I can fathom almost half a dozen reasons but I digress.) By "Nemesis" he acted as if just didn't have it and B4 got the bippity boppity boop stuff.

 

[Discofan]

If Soong really is a massive tool, he might program his creations to be like him, maybe without even realizing it.
He is a human, that's the way he sees people, a-holes.

That makes sense. Lewis Zimmerman programmed the Doctor to be exactly like him.

 

[Tiberous Q Data]

I draw no real connection between emotions and consciousness because emotions are reactions little different than instincts in my reckoning.

Data is definitely self aware, clearly intelligent, he has motivations, interests, curiosity, he is aware of others, he hopes, he aspires, and he has his own personhood.

He is at least just as sentient as any of us.