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I wish Harlan Ellison would just die already...

Funny thing about this thread title and the uproar it has caused? It's within the realm of probability that Harlan might make a similar comment about someone he disliked.

Would he? I mean, it's within the realm of probability that I hit the jackpot tomorrow and buy my own television studio, but will it happen? Not likely.
In Harlan's case, you have to look at past history. Has he ever said someone should die?
 
Ok, I just read the description for ""Repent, Harlequin" Said the Ticktocman" and rewatched the trailer for In Time, and I don't see where Ellison could possibly have a justification to sue. Sure they have people living with a limited amount of time, but other than that it sounds like a totally different story. It doesn't even sound like they even treat the time in the same way. In RHStT everything is done on a specific schedule and if you are late you lose time, but in In Time, they appear to treat time more like currency. In RHStT, time is controled by a "Ticktockman", but in IT, it is controled by companies. In RhStT, the main character rebels against the Ticktockman, but in IT Justin Timberlake goes on the run after he is given time by Matt Bomer. I'm sorry, but IMHO there are way more differences between the two than there are similarities. Somebody mentioned Logan's Run up thread, and I'd have to say it has more in common with that than it does RHStT. And I'm sorry, but the movie looks really cool, so I'm gonna be seriously pissed if Ellison actually manages to get the release of it stopped.
 
I really, really can't see it happening. It's set to release in just over a month, so it may get delayed pending the results of any action taken, but I don't see the justification for this lawsuit at all.

If they were to adapt Repent Harlequin, I'd be interested to see what they changed the title to. Because I think that'd be a very hard title to market to a modern film audience.
 
Holy.

Shit.

So, the similarities were, a desolate future-war landscape, and a disoriented future-soldier appears out of a time-warp in an alley and is taken into custody because he's apparently a dangerous madman. This was worth suing over. I mean, I was expecting something like "The Island". If you replace "future-war" with "alien" and "future-soldier" with "future-doctor," and throw in the part about killing a hobo with a raygun, "Soldier" and "City on the Edge of Forever" are a far closer match .

It's been a long time since I've seen the first Terminator, and my memory of how it plays out is almost non-existent. As such, I can't read your intent here – are you agreeing or disagreeing that it was really similar? At first I thought it was the former, now I'm leaning towards the latter, but still not entirely sure what your argument is.
 
That's a facile argument. Chilling effects are very real things, and we're probably lucky as a society that Ellison is viewed as more of a troublesome crank than any kind of real threat.
On the contrary, it would seem that he's taken very seriously if we're hearing about this suit. The vast majority never get even a moment of time in the press.

Another post pointed out how he seriously attempted legal action against the last Star Trek movie based on a completely unfounded rumor.
What's your definition of 'seriously attempted'? Because what he actually did was ask for additional information about the rumor. That's all. That's generally considered to be a reasonable thing to do.

Were that it could be so simple that you could just say x is similar to y, therefore x was stolen from y. We'd all be paying royalties back a hundred generations, in that case. The Estate of William Shakespeare would be making a killing.
Where's the hyperbole emoticon when you need one?? :wtf:

Actually, that last bit gave me a thought. Does anyone know if Harlan Ellison ever made any kind of comment on the ungodly complicated WGA credit arbitration process? It seems somewhat at odds with his "I already published something that this reminds me of, so send me a big truck of money to make me shut up" approach.

I don't know about his opinion of the credit system but I do know that he tries to work through the union to enforce his contracts before suing. But that's obviously a completely different situation from a plagiarism suit.

Jan
 
If they were to adapt Repent Harlequin, I'd be interested to see what they changed the title to. Because I think that'd be a very hard title to market to a modern film audience.
"Coming this summer! Time Terrorist: Blood Hunt! Rated R for Sci Fi Violence and Fantasy Torture!!"
 
I cannot believe that people are still debating that The Terminator isn't so close to Ellison's Outer Limits segments when Cameron flat out said he based the film on them in that Starlog article.
 
Well, I've seen both only recently and I don't agree that the similarities are that strong. Now if Cameron truly admitted he based them on those two episodes, then it's fine. But again without that, Ellison wouldn't have to be credited.
 
The company might not have the wherewithal to pursue the lawsuit or to settle monetarily, and so it might simply can the project,

This seems unlikely. The film looks like it's pretty much finished, and they had enough cash to hire Justin Timberlake. It's true that the company behind Nosferatu was driven into bankruptcy and all the prints of the film were ordered destroyed, but I think we can doubt that occurring here.
 
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The company might not have the wherewithal to pursue the lawsuit or to settle monetarily, and so it might simply can the project,

This seems unlikely. The film looks like it's pretty much finished, and they had enough cash to hire Justin Timberlake. It's true that the company behind Nosferatu was driven into bankruptcy and all the prints of the film were oredered destroyed, but I think we can doubt that occurring here.

Thank god bootleg prints of Nosferatu survived, but Florence Stoker (Bram's widow) had a case. Dracula was pretty much her sole livelihood at that point, and the existence of Nosferatu complicated her efforts to sell the film rights to Universal.

Oddly, nobody was beating down her door for the rights to The Lady of the Shroud or The Lair of the White Worm. :)

Ironically, Universal's lawyers later determined that, due to a legal technicality, Stoker's novel had never been officially copyrighted in the USA, so they didn't have to pay Stoker's estate anything for Dracula's Daughter, The Son of Dracula, etc.
 
He's derided as arrogant (and maybe he is, but not for this) for defending his work. And I don't get that. Don't we WANT to see the artist get paid for the work that we like?

Honestly? No, we don't. Not really.

Most people don't give two fucks about artists. Either they want to exploit them for profit, or they want to download their work for free, which amounts to the same thing. In both cases, artists and their rights are just obstacles to be circumvented.
 
And the funny thing is that Dracula was derivative of earlier works like Varney the Vampire.
 
It's been a long time since I've seen the first Terminator, and my memory of how it plays out is almost non-existent. As such, I can't read your intent here – are you agreeing or disagreeing that it was really similar? At first I thought it was the former, now I'm leaning towards the latter, but still not entirely sure what your argument is.

Disagreeing. The way "The Terminator" starts, there's a couple shots of the future-war with robo-tanks crushing skulls and such, and then the credits, then the Terminator popping out of a time-bubble in the parking lot of a school late at night. Arnie beats some punk kids to death and steals their clothes, and then the movie goes to an inner city alley, where Reese pops out of his time-bubble, and steals some clothes from a hobo, and is chased by the cops for a couple minutes, but manages to escape (I'd forgotten that last bit last night).

So, the similarities are future-guy, alley, hobo, and cops. I can see the resemblance, but there's a strong case to be made that you can develop both concepts independently from each story's own plot and character needs. "Soldier" begins in an alley because it was shot on a backlot and the soldier needs to be easily captured (the soldier causes a huge commotion, so if it had been practical to shoot, it seems just as likely he would've popped up in the middle of the street and been captured with a bit more effort). The hobo is there because the soldier needs a disposable character to kill to demonstrate that he's a mad-dog murdering machine without making him irredeemable in the eyes of the audience. The cops show up to get the soldier into custody so he can meet the present-day protagonist and get the plot rolling.

"The Terminator" begins in an alley because the plot requires Reece to escape fairly quietly, so he can't pop up in front of a lot of witnesses (also, it had to be an enclosed space for the cut part where Reese had a future-buddy with him who was telefragged when he materialized in a fire escape). The hobo is there because Reece needs pants, and he needs someone fairly powerless to steal them from, to demonstrate how he's at a disadvantage to the Terminator (who just walks up to people and demands pants, and then starts yanking out hearts until he gets some). The cops show up to put Reese on the run, continuing to demonstrate his powerlessness, as well as showing his distrust of contemporary authority (explaining why he doesn't just call the cops and say that someone is going to try to kill a woman named Sarah Connor), and also his resourcefulness in escaping while also stealing a shirt and a shotgun.

Context matters. Police, alleys, and hobos are generalities (like I said, Ellison used all of those same elements himself in "City on the Edge of Forever"). The specific uses of both scenes are wildly different, and could be plausibly be arrived at independently.

On the contrary, it would seem that he's taken very seriously if we're hearing about this suit. The vast majority never get even a moment of time in the press.

I meant, if he were taken seriously enough that people generally knew to avoid concepts he's used. Avoiding Ellison material doesn't seem to be a rule of thumb on the scale of "Don't read unsolicited story ideas, and if you do, don't do anything like them." As evidenced by the fact that he is still finding people to sue, and his bibliography has yet to circumscribe a no-man's-land in science fiction.

I cannot believe that people are still debating that The Terminator isn't so close to Ellison's Outer Limits segments when Cameron flat out said he based the film on them in that Starlog article.

It would probably help if there was any objective public accounting. It seems the unedited Starlog article is unavailable, much less the original notes from the interview, so it'd be difficult to determine the exact context where Cameron said, "Oh, I took a couple of Outer Limits segments," or even if that's the exact wording, since the only source is Ellison's own second-hand recounting. Same for the bit about Cameron telling Tracey Torme, “Oh, I ripped off a couple of Harlan Ellison stories.” It's so odd that the bad guy in Harlan Ellison anecdotes are such overt mustache-twirling villains. Maybe I just encounter a more sophisticated brand of asshole in my daily life.

Anyway, the "smoking gun" is pretty biased since it all comes from Ellison's after the fact recollections, so he'd naturally be telling things from his perspective, and knowing his sense of humor, he'd probably also exaggerate parts of it. Since it never went to court, we can't look at a lot of the evidence to decide for ourselves (ironic, considering Ellison's famous line about informed opinions). It's all hearsay, and Cameron's said that he disagreed with the decision to settle, but was forced to when the studio said that he, personally, would be on the hook for damages if they went to court and lost, and he couldn't afford that gamble.
 
...and Ellison is a great natural resource, one shouldn't wish him gone when all you have to do is ignore him if you so desire. I wasn't going to post in this thread at all given the title, but I decided I had to say something. Even wanting to name the thread this is a sign of deep, deep problems IMHO. Please try to get some counselling and try not to hurt yourself or anyone else in the meantime.

Cameron objected to this acknowledgement, which was forced on him by the distributor, and has since labeled Ellison's claim a "nuisance suit", referring to Ellison as a "parasite who can kiss my ass."
:lol:

Strong words from a man who has made a career out of making incredibly unoriginal, uninspired movies with good special effects.

Honestly? No, we don't. Not really.

Most people don't give two fucks about artists. Either they want to exploit them for profit, or they want to download their work for free, which amounts to the same thing. In both cases, artists and their rights are just obstacles to be circumvented.
I agree. Most people don't care about the people behind their favorite show/movie/album/book, ect. However, the same could be said about nearly everything people consume on their daily lives. Do we care that the person who made the t-shirt we buy works in a slave-like environment? No. Do we care that the person who makes the McDonalds we eat makes $5 an hour. Nope.

I personally would rather see more artists get paid than have only a select few making millions. However, this will probably never change.
 
I remember when 20th Century Fox were sued over League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Alan Moore had nothing to do with the movie, but he was forced to testify. Fox disputed the lawsuit, but they settled just to be safe.
 
...and Ellison is a great natural resource, one shouldn't wish him gone when all you have to do is ignore him if you so desire. I wasn't going to post in this thread at all given the title, but I decided I had to say something. Even wanting to name the thread this is a sign of deep, deep problems IMHO. Please try to get some counselling and try not to hurt yourself or anyone else in the meantime.

Cameron objected to this acknowledgement, which was forced on him by the distributor, and has since labeled Ellison's claim a "nuisance suit", referring to Ellison as a "parasite who can kiss my ass."
:lol:

Strong words from a man who has made a career out of making incredibly unoriginal, uninspired movies with good special effects.

:rolleyes: Let's not go overboard. He's a hell of a filmmaker.
 
A vastly overrated film maker, in my opinion. But we will have to agree to disagree.
I can see the position that he's a special effects director, but in my (humble) personal opinion, every film he's attached to is cinematic gold. Six films in a row, from Terminator, Aliens, Abyss, T2, True Lies, Titanic, and now Avatar make him almost 100% bankable.

Aliens and Terminator 2 are considered two of the greatest action films of all time, and he wrote them himself. That's what separates him from directors like Michael Bay.

His ideas may be recycled (Dances with Fern Gully?), but as a director he's still adding his own personal vision to the product. There aren't many other directors who could replicate his vision on film the way he does. I don't think he's a hack.
 
He's derided as arrogant (and maybe he is, but not for this) for defending his work. And I don't get that. Don't we WANT to see the artist get paid for the work that we like?

Honestly? No, we don't. Not really.

Most people don't give two fucks about artists. Either they want to exploit them for profit, or they want to download their work for free, which amounts to the same thing. In both cases, artists and their rights are just obstacles to be circumvented.

That is an attitude I disagree with then.
 
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