Please ... let's cease with the discussion on the action in here, and take it to PM.
I wish Harlan Ellison would just die already...
- Thread starter Tom Hendricks
- Start date
Please ... let's cease with the discussion on the action in here, and take it to PM.
While standing up for what I said in the post, I truly meant the title in total hyperbole. The original title was, "I wish Harlan Ellison would just go away." However knowing how Harlan is, I wanted to ratchet it up a little to match his cantankerous way. I have enjoyed Harlan's different stories, but they never felt as great as he has made them out to be. I guess I don't think he deserves his arrogance. There are a few things I do admire about him, especially his work to help other authors with health issues. So I guess I'm apologizing to anyone who is truly offended by my title.
The thing with Harlan Ellison is that both fans and haters alike have a problem separating the work from the man. His work is classic and will likely be remembered as one of the sci-fi greats of the 20th Century. However, the Ellison, the man, is really not that great of a human being. His long-held grudges, continuously nasty attitude towards others, and apparent misogyny don't paint him in the best of light.
From my observations, haters focus on negative aspects of the guy and ignore his quality as an author and his ownership of his works. Along those same lines, devout fans will tend to put him on a pedestal and give a pass to his multiple transgressions in his daily life.
This is the point where the internet explodes.
With Ellison defending his work, that's great and he should. The problem, though, is that anything he does it or threatens to do it (anyone remember his beef with Trek XI based on a false internet rumor?), it becomes such a spectacle because of his abrasive attitude that he's become a parody of himself. And for better or worse, it looks like he's starting to (if not already) become more known for these legal battles than for his work.
Just my two cents.
From my observations, haters focus on negative aspects of the guy and ignore his quality as an author and his ownership of his works. Along those same lines, devout fans will tend to put him on a pedestal and give a pass to his multiple transgressions in his daily life.
This is the point where the internet explodes.
With Ellison defending his work, that's great and he should. The problem, though, is that anything he does it or threatens to do it (anyone remember his beef with Trek XI based on a false internet rumor?), it becomes such a spectacle because of his abrasive attitude that he's become a parody of himself. And for better or worse, it looks like he's starting to (if not already) become more known for these legal battles than for his work.
Just my two cents.
Is it arrogance to defend your work from theft?
His work is how he makes his living. Pays his rent. It's taken food out of his mouth. (Yes, yes, he probably has enough that this ONE movie won't bankrupt him, but that's not the point.)
Artists should ALWAYS vigilantly defend and protect their work. Giving it away devalues the work one put into it. Giving it away takes food off of your table.
He's derided as arrogant (and maybe he is, but not for this) for defending his work. And I don't get that. Don't we WANT to see the artist get paid for the work that we like?
If this movie did rip off Harlan, the budget was probably big enough, they could've gotten the rights.
Regarding the Lucas thing, I don't recall him ever suing anybody over resemblances to Star Wars, just that court case with the armor. For instance all the stuff that uses lightsabers, including several non-Lucas cartoons. I think it's the bootleggers of SW merchandise who upset him.
Lucas has also been fairly supportive of the fan films (Some writers of whom, such as Kevin Rubio, have now done work for him), despite some early problems.
Also regarding Harlan's WHO stuff, he said in some interview I remember but can't find he stopped watching on a regular basis during the Davison era, so I'm not sure if he's checked out the new show.
Lucas has also been fairly supportive of the fan films (Some writers of whom, such as Kevin Rubio, have now done work for him), despite some early problems.
Also regarding Harlan's WHO stuff, he said in some interview I remember but can't find he stopped watching on a regular basis during the Davison era, so I'm not sure if he's checked out the new show.
In 1978, Twentieth Century-Fox sued MCA, Universal, and ABC, alleging that Battlestar Galactica infringed on their copyright for Star Wars. Lucasfilm, Ltd. was subsequently joined as a co-plaintiff. A copy of the order from the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, ordering that the case be remanded may be found at http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17217847881299692282&hl=en&as_sdt=100000000002, which I found through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestar_Galactica_(1978_TV_series)#Lawsuit. According to the discussion page, the final disposition of the case is not known, but since the trial was ordered but evidently never occurred, the notion that a settlement was reached is floated as a reasonable assumption.
So do we know we know for a fact that this is indeed intended to be taken from Ellison's story, and is not an idea someone came up with completely on their own? Because the later is possible and has indeed happened before. If that is indeed the case then I feel sorry for the people making the movie, who are being punished for something they didn't even know they are doing. On the other hand, if it is the former then I'd have to say they deserve it. Personally, I'm hoping it's the later, because I was actually planning on seeing In Time eventually.
Lucas has decided you can make fan videos, etc. But the moment you try and profit on it, he will sue you.
Also: some of the stuff that you mention might fall under free use as parody. Which is protected free speech. So, he wouldn't be able to stop that stuff even if he wanted to.
Obviously not, since not many people have seen the final film yet. But there are obviously enough points of similarity in the movie that Harlan's attorney agreed that suit should be filed with the intent to block the release of the film in order to protect Harlan's interests. The facts are for the court (and perhaps a jury) to examine.
You're right, many *ideas* are arrived at by separate people, sometimes startlingly simultaneously. But ideas can't be copyrighted and any lawyer would usher somebody out the door if they tried to sue based on having thought of a similar concept.
Jan
There should be a big budget Chad Vader film.
I made the Lucas comment without much thought. You are right, he hasn't sued for copyright infringement that I know of - just for fan made memorabilia. In fact, the Star Wars Robot Chicken episode was done for profit, and as far as I know, they didn't have to pay Lucas for the right to make it.
Lucasfilm was co-plaintiff in the lawsuit against MCA at al. for the original Battlestar Galactica, as I said just upthread.
Yeah, but that was quite a long time ago. Plus there have been other films that were more blatant rip offs of Star Wars. Disney's The Black Hole comes to mind.
Besides which, Lucas completely ripped off Lord of the Rings when he made Willow, so I don't think he has much ground to stand on suing others for stealing "his" ideas.
I don't agree that The Black Hole was a "more blatant rip off" of Star Wars than original BSG at all, or even that it was any kind of rip off. It seemed quite original and very ambitious to me.
I don't agree with this either. For one thing, he just retold the story of Star Wars in a world of high fantasy. For another, Tolkien doesn't corner the market on little people, even in works of fantasy.
I was thinking more of a visual thing, with the robots that were clearly meant to make viewers think of the droids from Star Wars, troopers that resemble storm troopers, and the evil robot that strikes me as a low rent Vader.
There were more similarities than just having small people in it.
Not all similarities are actionable.
Given what happened over BSG, I would expect Fox and/or Lucasfilm to have gone after Disney too had there been anything actionable in The Black Hole, which after all was quite a high profile movie, and so hard to miss.
I was quite familiar with The Lord of the Rings when I saw Willow, having read it twice by then. If anything Willow was screaming Star Wars at me, and I wasn't seeing anything proprietary ripped off from Middle-earth. Maybe if I cared to watch that awful movie again....
But anyway, again, if there were anything actionable, why didn't any of the Tolkien Estate, Tolkien Enterprises, Saul Zaentz, or United Artists, as appropriate, file suit? It's not like any of them were too poor at that time to protect their property, which by the time of Willow was recognized as valuable.
Given what happened over BSG, I would expect Fox and/or Lucasfilm to have gone after Disney too had there been anything actionable in The Black Hole, which after all was quite a high profile movie, and so hard to miss.
I was quite familiar with The Lord of the Rings when I saw Willow, having read it twice by then. If anything Willow was screaming Star Wars at me, and I wasn't seeing anything proprietary ripped off from Middle-earth. Maybe if I cared to watch that awful movie again....
But anyway, again, if there were anything actionable, why didn't any of the Tolkien Estate, Tolkien Enterprises, Saul Zaentz, or United Artists, as appropriate, file suit? It's not like any of them were too poor at that time to protect their property, which by the time of Willow was recognized as valuable.
But, I thought Lucas was involved with the Robot Chicken and Star Wars episodes, or at least gave his permission?
There should be a big budget Chad Vader film.
I made the Lucas comment without much thought. You are right, he hasn't sued for copyright infringement that I know of - just for fan made memorabilia. In fact, the Star Wars Robot Chicken episode was done for profit, and as far as I know, they didn't have to pay Lucas for the right to make it.
But, I thought Lucas was involved with the Robot Chicken and Star Wars episodes, or at least gave his permission?
There should be a big budget Chad Vader film.
I made the Lucas comment without much thought. You are right, he hasn't sued for copyright infringement that I know of - just for fan made memorabilia. In fact, the Star Wars Robot Chicken episode was done for profit, and as far as I know, they didn't have to pay Lucas for the right to make it.
Robot Chicken (and Family Guy, for that matter) is a parody and, subsequently, protected under copyright. The fact that Lucas likes them (enough to lend his voice) is just icing on the cake for the makers of Robot Chicken.
I think the problem here isn't that Harlan's mad, it's that he appears to be impeding other creators. At first blush the article seems to show a blatant rip-off, but if the "you pay for your immortality" thing is true, then it appears that it is quite different from his own work and has more in common with Paolo Bacigalupi's Pop Squad.
I'll be honest. I've read I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream and I've seen City on the Edge of Forever. Neither convinced me of Harlan's greatness, and yes I understand that Rodenberry "butchered" Harlan's script, but that's what producers and editors do. It's happened to me and I don't whine about it. The higher-ups rightly have a greater say in a work's final look because they are putting in the money and are working within a larger brand.
I'll be honest. I've read I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream and I've seen City on the Edge of Forever. Neither convinced me of Harlan's greatness, and yes I understand that Rodenberry "butchered" Harlan's script, but that's what producers and editors do. It's happened to me and I don't whine about it. The higher-ups rightly have a greater say in a work's final look because they are putting in the money and are working within a larger brand.