I Want Some Old TNG!

[Claudia]

I had the same impression on Data/B4 as Trent had - a loophole to resurrect Data should the need arise. (And it would have arisen since Data's the favourite TNG-character... and I guess Spiner would have been "persuaded" to play him once again. Install B4 with some of that "aging"-subroutine that Data had in AGT, and the whole "Data doesn't age but I do"-problem would have been solved once and for all.)

As for Data's death... sorry, but I rarely saw a more pointless death scene (well, save for perhaps some in Harry Potter) - it's all well and good that Data's saving Picard, nothing to say against that. But why exactly did Picard freeze like that? The whole setup with Shinzon and Picard's doubts/grief just made no sense whatsoever. And quite honestly, shouldn't every officer be equipped with this kind of emergency one-person transport-facility? We saw it didn't depend on Data's unique physiology to work, as it did work with Picard after all. Pretty useful gadget especially since transporters tend to blow up/not work when a landing party desperately needs to be beamed back...

As for the OP: I'd welcome books set within the series' run as well. So far I wasn't overwhelmed with TNG-relaunch (although I'm looking forward to LtP), because for me there are too few characters left of the series that I liked (that being Picard and to a lesser extent Crusher) and the new ones don't do anything for me so far. So I definitely wouldn't mind the odd novel every now and then set during the series' run...

 

[Christopher]

I had the same impression on Data/B4 as Trent had - a loophole to resurrect Data should the need arise.

I've never heard anyone dispute that that was at least part of the reason for it. But as I said, there's a big difference between leaving yourself an option and intending to use it.

As for Data's death... sorry, but I rarely saw a more pointless death scene (well, save for perhaps some in Harry Potter) - it's all well and good that Data's saving Picard, nothing to say against that. But why exactly did Picard freeze like that? The whole setup with Shinzon and Picard's doubts/grief just made no sense whatsoever.

Where could Picard have gone? There was no way of getting to a transporter or shuttle in time, no way of shutting down the reaction. He was out of options until Data showed up.

And quite honestly, shouldn't every officer be equipped with this kind of emergency one-person transport-facility? We saw it didn't depend on Data's unique physiology to work, as it did work with Picard after all. Pretty useful gadget especially since transporters tend to blow up/not work when a landing party desperately needs to be beamed back...

I gathered it was a prototype, the only one they had.

And I prefer to think that it simply tapped into the Enterprise's transporter system and operated it remotely. I refuse to believe that such a tiny thing can actually be a transporter, or that a transporter can dematerialize and rematerialize itself, which is just plain idiotic. True, the E-E's transporters were said to be offline, but maybe it was just their control circuitry that was down, and the actual machinery was still functional.

As for the OP: I'd welcome books set within the series' run as well.

I'd like to see more stories about Tasha Yar. There's a limited amount of room for them, however.

 

[Trent Roman]

You're missing my point. The issue is not whether the download of Data's memories into B-4 was intended to set up his possible return, which it obviously was. The issue is whether the filmmakers' intention was to actually bring Data back. My point is that, yes, B-4 would've provided a method for bringing Data back if they decided to do so, but that's not the same thing as saying that they intended to do that specific thing.

I agree with this, so I'm not entirely clear what we're arguing about anymore. Obviously, the writers didn't know at the time what the box office was going to be--whether it would be enough of a blowout to convince the Powers That Be to make another film after all or, as was the case, fairly disappointing returns; so it was all heging of bets, nothing for certain.

Also, I agree with the two previous posters -- it's oversimplistic, and overly metatextual, to assume that the only possible reading of B-4 remembering "Blue Skies" is "Hey, don't worry, Data will be back in the next movie."

It's not the only possible interpretation, no, but it's the dominant one, creating a set of expections for the future of the characters that Countdown is seen as having fulfilled whereas the novel line has not (yet--possibly).

As for Data's death... sorry, but I rarely saw a more pointless death scene (well, save for perhaps some in Harry Potter) - it's all well and good that Data's saving Picard, nothing to say against that. But why exactly did Picard freeze like that? The whole setup with Shinzon and Picard's doubts/grief just made no sense whatsoever.

Where could Picard have gone? There was no way of getting to a transporter or shuttle in time, no way of shutting down the reaction. He was out of options until Data showed up.

I think Claudia was referring to the fact that while Picard was fixed there, the superweapon thing was still counting down, still threatening to wipe out all life aboard the Enterprise; not that he wasn't escaping, but that he wasn't sabotaging the superweapon. (To which the best explanation would be not grief for Shinzon as a person, although of all of Trek's movie villains he was probably the most humane and had the greatest potential for redemption, but rather because Shinzon was a clone of himself and watching Shinzon die--from so close, and at his hand--was essentially like watching himself die, which comes as a psychological shock. Not something I find particularly satisfying--Picard has shot himself in the past without going catatonic over it--but them, I agree with Claudia that the whole death scene was sketchily constructed and absent the emotional and thematic resonance it was trying for.)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

I agree with this, so I'm not entirely clear what we're arguing about anymore.

My argument isn't with you, it's with RandyS's assumption that the filmmakers' actual intention was to bring back Data, period (and that not bringing him back was therefore a "stupid" decision by the novelists in defiance of the filmmakers' intent). You seemed to be misinterpreting my comments, thinking I was saying that the intent of the B-4 download was not to provide a back door for Data's return. My point is that it was obviously meant to allow for Data's return, but RandyS is wrong to assume that Data was intended to return. If we're in agreement on that, then there is no argument.

It's not the only possible interpretation, no, but it's the dominant one, creating a set of expections for the future of the characters that Countdown is seen as having fulfilled whereas the novel line has not (yet--possibly).

Yes, it created that expectation in some people. But others, myself included, felt that the film made a strong case for B-4 being fundamentally incapable of becoming Data 2.0 and that it would create credibility problems if there were a later film that turned B-4 into a copy of Data. Also that it would be a waste of the character, and ethically questionable, to essentially murder B-4 in order that the status quo ante be restored.

My expectation was that either there would be no more TNG movies or that Spiner would choose not to return as either Data or B-4. I recognized the existence of the back door, but I didn't assume it would inevitably be acted upon. Lots of movies and TV shows set up sequel or arc possibilities that don't get acted on. It's unwise to assume that just because you see something set up, it's inevitable that it will have a payoff. (Remember when VGR revealed that B'Elanna was in love with Chakotay? Talk about your disappearing plotlines.)

 

[dbush]

Would anyone else like to see some books set comfortably in the middle of the 7 year mission we know and love from the TV show?

The important question is this. Did books like Hollow Men, the String Theory trilogy, and Troublesome Minds (which is, honestly, too early to make a determination) sell demonstrably better than books set outside the broadcast confines of their respective television series? Or did they see lower sales than books set post-finales or with original-to-novels characters and concepts?

Publishers are going to follow the money. If mid-series books see a sales increase, it's financially sensible to commission more. If the post-finale books sell better, then that's where the commissions are going to be.

Back to this....

Does anyone know the answer to this? Although I read both types of books with equal pleasure, it is an interesting question that hasn't being discussed (in this thread).

 

[JD]

I'm not at all associated with Pocket, so I don't know for sure. But the fact that the vast majority of books we have been getting lately have been almost all post-finale, make me think that they probably sold better.

 

[diankra]

Yes, it created that expectation in some people. But others, myself included, felt that the film made a strong case for B-4 being fundamentally incapable of becoming Data 2.0 and that it would create credibility problems if there were a later film that turned B-4 into a copy of Data. Also that it would be a waste of the character, and ethically questionable, to essentially murder B-4 in order that the status quo ante be restored.

Applause to that. Like the way it happened or not, Data's death was one of the few bits of Nemesis that I thought worked to some degree; and to simply wipe B-4 so he can become Data is a total negation of the 'Data is not a machine, he's a person' theme that first got foregrounded in Measure of a Man.

The only ethical way to bring Data back is to have Bruce Maddox and his team work out, by inspecting B-4, how to build a new Soong android, and then download 'Data' into the new android before it can start developing its own neural net. And even that opens up a lot of philosophical and ethical issues (but that's true of Spock's 'resurrection' too - once it's worked once, why don't the Vulcans routinely clone spare bodies and transfer the Katra of the recently dead back into them?).

 

[seigezunt]

perhaps it saved us a sequel where Data had an obesity chip or a baldness chip installed...

 

[Smitty]

Why I love browsing the boards....

I was reading through the post http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=95549; which by the way has some interesting debating going on; and within the post I saw the where someone mentioned "The important question is this. Did books like Hollow Men, the String Theory trilogy, and Troublesome Minds". The cool thing there is that I was not aware of the new TOS book "Troublesome Minds" which is now on my list of books to check out!

 

[LightningStorm]

Re: Why I love browsing the boards....

I was reading through the post http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=95549; which by the way has some interesting debating going on; and within the post I saw the where someone mentioned "The important question is this. Did books like Hollow Men, the String Theory trilogy, and Troublesome Minds". The cool thing there is that I was not aware of the new TOS book "Troublesome Minds" which is now on my list of books to check out!

I'm not sure this is substantial enough to be a thread of its own, so I'll merge this post into the thread in which you linked.

 

[SicOne]

Would anyone else like to see some books set comfortably in the middle of the 7 year mission we know and love from the TV show?

The important question is this. Did books like Hollow Men, the String Theory trilogy, and Troublesome Minds (which is, honestly, too early to make a determination) sell demonstrably better than books set outside the broadcast confines of their respective television series? Or did they see lower sales than books set post-finales or with original-to-novels characters and concepts?

Publishers are going to follow the money. If mid-series books see a sales increase, it's financially sensible to commission more. If the post-finale books sell better, then that's where the commissions are going to be.

Back to this....

Does anyone know the answer to this? Although I read both types of books with equal pleasure, it is an interesting question that hasn't being discussed (in this thread).

For what little further information is offered about this subject, see the Published Authors Profits thread (last entry 5-5-09), but basically the short version is the publisher does not publicize its sales figures. Many good reasons are offered by various Trek authors as to why, yet it does not satisfy our thirst for knowledge regarding this issue...

 

[Broccoli]

Re: Data

1) Wasn't there a TNG episode that mentioned that Data can age if he chooses to?

2) Data coming back as B4 could still happen if Pocket takes Countdown into account. However, since Countdown doesn't happen for a number of years from where they are at currently in the books, the writers don't need to worry about it yet.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Data

1) Wasn't there a TNG episode that mentioned that Data can age if he chooses to?

Yes, "Inheritance" put in a throwaway line about Data's aging program, as a way of handwaving Brent Spiner's aging over the seven years of the series. But the movies ignored that and had him explicitly state that he did not age, even though Spiner had visibly changed by then. Just another Data retcon to go along with the contractions thing and the no-emotions thing. Oh, and the fact that nobody suspected he was created by Noonien Soong, but it later turned out he looked exactly like Noonien Soong. ST has its share of inconsistencies, but they seem to congregate around Data.

 

[adamisme]

i think TNG with the old crew has run its course is my feeling, its nice to have them meet up on the Titan and the Enterprise E as well, but I think them being on the ship together as a proper crew is over

 

[Mooch]

I'd like another early TNG book with Tasha Yar in it!

 

[TheAlmanac]

You know, as viewers, we (metatextually) understand why Tasha Yar (being an opening-credits castmember) would be so important to the rest of the senior staff, and I appreciated the way TNG would invoke the memory of her death to add emotional "oomph" to some episodes...but in retrospect, I find it kind of weird that she became such an important friend so quickly to them, given that a) she had no prior personal connections to them, and 2) we mostly saw them together in a work environment, and even then only for a few months.

I mean, it's not like any of those first-season chief engineers get the same sort of consideration...

 

[Trent Roman]

Well, Picard cares for all those under his command, of course, and had specifically requested her for the Big E which meant that he was invested in her, may even have looked to her as a daughter figure the way she saw him as a father figure. We know why Data cared for her. For Worf, she was a finely honed warrior under whom he served, so one can expect loyalty and respect there. Troi makes bonds easily and Yar died trying to save her, so she might have taken on greater importance posthumously. As for the rest, I think we simply need to accept what Yar's holographic message in "Skin of Evil" had to say about their friendships; and that command staff, who have to rely on each other for their lives at times, can form quick but meaningful relationships.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Christopher]

You know, as viewers, we (metatextually) understand why Tasha Yar (being an opening-credits castmember) would be so important to the rest of the senior staff, and I appreciated the way TNG would invoke the memory of her death to add emotional "oomph" to some episodes...but in retrospect, I find it kind of weird that she became such an important friend so quickly to them, given that a) she had no prior personal connections to them, and 2) we mostly saw them together in a work environment, and even then only for a few months.

That's a good point. It might be interesting to see a book exploring the off-duty interactions Tasha had with the crew during her tenure, to help explain that closeness.

Then again, maybe other crewmembers who died got funerals that were just as heartfelt, but we just didn't see them onscreen.

 

[Paris]

I wouldn't mind reading a Lost Era type book that sees Tasha before the launch of the Enterprise-D. According to memory beta, Tasha was born in 2337 and started at the academy in 2355. Also according to memory beta, Troi started at the academy in '55. At this point Riker and Laforge had been at the academy for two years, so it is quite possible that Riker or Troi, or both, had known her previous to their assignment aboard the E-D.

Please correct me if i'm in error...it may have been stated on screen that Riker and Troi definetly met her for the first time on the Enterprise, but if it did, I don't recall.

p.s. - I still haven't read Christopher's Buried Age. Was there any mention of Tasha in it? I have the book, but I just haven't gotten to it yet...

 

[Christopher]

Tasha is in The Buried Age, but only briefly, and only depicting stuff we already knew about her pre-TNG -- Picard's first encounter with her as described in "Legacy" (fleshed out considerably from a couple of sentences) and the scene in "All Good Things" where she shuttled him aboard the Enterprise (but the original, unaltered version of events this time).